Dan arranges a call with Barry Bowen, who works with the Trinity Foundation, an organization founded to investigate and expose religious fraud and promote transparency in religious institutions.
Dan arranges a call with Barry Bowen, who works with the Trinity Foundation, an organization founded to investigate and expose religious fraud and promote transparency in religious institutions. Barry has uncovered intriguing new information about Hillsong’s business dealings across the Globe, including new revelations involving Brian Houston and Carl Lentz. Dan then dives deep into the sitting members of Hillsong’s global board, some of whom have their own controversial pasts, while Delali herself meets with a current member of the board to discuss the future of the disgraced church.
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Find episode transcripts here: https://hillsong-a-megachurch-shattered.simplecast.com/episodes/ep-5-same-old-sin
DAN VO: [00:00:00] This episode may contain explicit language and themes such as sexual assault and violence. Listener discretion is advised.
Barry: He wrote a book, The Business of Church, and it advised to set up multiple LLCs to protect a church from litigation, from harm.
DAN VO: I'm Dan John Stone, and this is Hillsong Megachurch Shattered from Discovery +.
DAN VO: On March 19th, 2022, the day after the news aboutBrian Houston's inappropriate conduct involving a church staffer and conference attendee was leaked to the press, Hillsong's interim global senior pastor, Phil Dooley, held a service titled "grace, truth, and a hope-filled future". The service was live streamed to Hillsong's 568 thousand youtube subscribers. and it seemed to mark an important moment for Hillsong - the turning of a [00:01:00] new leaf. An effort of honesty, and a promise to a hurt and confused congregation.
Phil Dooley: I wanna say we are sorry for anyone who has been a victim of any form of uh, harassment. Where you've been hurt. We pray for healing, strength, and courage to move forward in your life.
Phil Dooley: We're a church community that desires that everyone who comes through our doors at any one of our locations will feel safe. We understand that there are things that do need to change in order for our church, um, to be led well and to move forward.. And we are not afraid to acknowledge that, uh, where trust and maybe aspects of transparency have been lost. We'll do our best to rebuild that
Phil Dooley: In this season, health and healing are our focus. That's what we're committed. [00:02:00] Uh, we will seek to honor God in all we do. Uh, we, we are gonna honor God. Um, and there's pressure from every side and voices and people saying this and that, but we've gotta honor God. We love and we will lead his people to the best of our ability.
DAN VO: The question is now: will Hillsong make good on this promise of change and rebuilding transparency... are they even capable of it, and do they really want it. What is "the best of their ability"? these are difficult questions to answer. In many ways only time will tell. but i could look for clues, and I thought we might find some looking into the key decision makers of Hillsong: the global senior board.
DAN VO: But first, I arranged a meeting with Barry Bowen, a religious fraud investigator with the trinity foundation. Barry [00:03:00] has researched Hillsong's business structure in the u.S., using limited liability companies for property holdings and church ownership, rather than traditional incorporated non-profits. A practice that, according to Barry, can lead to problems...
DAN: I know that you had said, um, um, done a bit more research on the, the llc and I guess like top, explain to. us, or explain me and everybody listening, um, the, what is the red flag of, of churches having LLCs
Barry: It's becoming more common for churches to use companies and people that attend the church are not necessarily considered a member of the llc. They don't have voting rights in the business of the church. In a traditional church, the church that I grew up in, , we would have business meetings once a month. Um, the church attendees, the church [00:04:00] members, they could look at where the money was going each month. They could vote to approve a budget. You would not have that with Hillsong. The people that attend would not have any say over the, um, the way the money spent. Instead, the board of directors would make that decision, the manager of the church would make that decision.
DAN VO: According to Barry, not only does setting up churches as LLCs completely remove any decision-making power from the congregation and limit transparency, but it can often lead to an autocratic power structure.
Barry: A limited liability company will often be operated by one or two managers. Whereas a board of directors can have a lot more people on the board. Board members make key . Decisions. they can be held accountable if you've only got one manager, maybe one person is making decisions without any oversight. Who are they accountable to? And, and [00:05:00] this is a serious problem.
DAN VO: Hillsong NYC is registered as an LLC in America, and until august 2020, three months before his firing, Carl Lentz was listed as the manager. Within this structure, and without an effective local board, carl ran the church with complete authority and no checks and balances. There was also reportedly very little effective management and accountability coming from the Hillsong global board. Carl was the king of the castle, which led to the alleged toxic and abusive environment at Hillsong NYC, and carl's own downfall. In the current structure, Hillsong may not be able to prevent another pastor gone rogue. But as Barry explains, they are legally protected from them.
Barry: Carl Father father Steven Lentz is an attorney and he wrote a book, The Business of Church, and it advised to set up multiple LLCs to protect a [00:06:00] church from litigation, from harm.
DAN: What it does is, in the title, it limits your liability and you're saying the liability of, of your church.
Barry: Correct So imagine, um, a lawsuit, if you sue an organization that's an llc, maybe you can only sue one person, the manager. A board of directors, if you have 6, 8, 10 people, all of those could be named in a lawsuit. A limited liability company limits the number of people that can be sued.
DAN VO: In other words, there is little incentive for a hard line of accountability across Hillsong's global churches under LCCs. Because, if something does go wrong, like it did in Hillsong NYC, or Hillsong Dallas, Hillsong global doesn't have to face the consequences.
DAN: The thing that just resonates with me just how complex this is. Um, churches seem very simple. You're sort of giving devotion to God, um, and serving your [00:07:00] community, but then all of these business strategies, tactics, which are not illegal, um, just seems very, very complicated. It seems very, very, very much by design. For you Barry, how do you think Hillsong, um, through this public trial of Hillsong, trial by opinion, trial by social media trial in the media's eye. Do you think that has impacted any bigger conversation about transparency in religious organizations? Like does it help the cause or does it hurt?
Barry: I think people watching this Hillsong controversy are learning some important lessons. Church leadership should be held to high moral and ethical standards. The Bible says about these church leaders that they should not be lovers . Of money. That's just one for a church leader. Um, they, they should have self-control, and it's clear that Carl Lentz did not have [00:08:00] self-control. The funds of the church were not properly accounted for. And I think donors should ask more of their churches and, and ministries. Where is the money going? Donors, they should check out these organizations and not give to 'em if they do not show integrity and leadership and high ethical standards
DAN VO: It's difficult to understand how a church could be set up in a way where accountability isn't ensured, transparency is nonexistent, and legal protections need to be in place. In my opinion, it's a major red flag. But what's clear is that this structure will make the challenge even greater for Hillsong to fulfill their promise of restoring and rebuilding trust, accountability and safety in their churches. It would require a major systemic transformation, and a strong desire by Hillsong's global board. I wondered [00:09:00] if Hillsong's current board were equipped to usher in this new era for Hillsong. So I asked my producers Rae and Kevin to do some digging into the people now holding Hillsong's seats of power.
DAN: So what do we got guys?
kevin_brennecke: Well, you know, many of these board members, Uh, there's very, very little pastoral experience among all of them. Um, for example. George Aghajanian, that's a name we recognize as being the general manager, um, and director of Hillsong Church Australia. No pastoral experience whatsoever. He's been in the church for, for decades. Next to Brian Houston, George Aghajanian, he is Hillsong. The systems of Hillsong and, and how it's run.
Rae: The Guardian called him the man behind Houston's throne,
DAN: The hand of the king.
Rae: Yeah.
kevin_brennecke: He totally is. He was called into the Royal Commission, into child [00:10:00] sexual abuse in Australia, same time as Brian Houston was. Because, he was very much involved in the handling of Frank Houston, uh, along with Brian Houston.
Rae: I have his testimony from that, in front of me right now. And it says that he was the one that told, Brian for the first time about Frank.
kevin_brennecke: I have to assume that George Aghajanian is very much a part of how Hillsong handles every scandal that hits them.
DAN: And you're saying his, his background is purely in business.
kevin_brennecke: yes.
DAN VO: Among the sitting Hillsong board of nine. Most are career businessmen. Dr. Stephen Crouch, the chairman of the board is an accountant, Russell Dacre is the founder of an automotive franchising firm, Phillip Denton is a property developer, and Nabi Saleh is the former CEO of gloria jeans coffee, a massive chain he sold in 2014 for 163 million dollars. Hillsong's website proudly details their experience with [00:11:00] business management, strategy and structure, risk and assurance, property development acquisitions, and automotive franchising. Just three of them, Phil Dooley, Tolu batters, and Gary Clark are actually pastors but even looking at the pastors, you find reason to doubt their ability to shepherd a congregation of tens of thousands into a brighter and safer future.
kevin_brennecke: Gary Clark is a Hillsong global pastor, just in 2020, he was called out and was forced to apologize. Brian Houston put out this statement about it because he was asked about the George Floyd situation in America. And while he was preaching at the pulpit, he said, quote, "It's a race issue. Yes. For me, I don't live in the United States. For me to be railing as a pastor about something that's going on in another country, I'm not really sure that's going to help anyone."
Rae: And [00:12:00] that's insane because if you don't give an opinion about extra judicial killing of, you know, in a racist way, you know what, that's an opinion.
kevin_brennecke: Right, Right. And it's interesting cuz he calls it, he says it's a race issue and it's not one I need to talk about cuz it's not my country. Like race and murder does not have a border.
Rae: Oh my God. Thank you
kevin_brennecke: Not to comment on it because you are in another country is a little bit insane to me
DAN VO: After the backlash, Gary Clark ended up issuing an apology and hosting a live stream conversation, speaking with black men from the Hillsong London congregation who shared their own experiences with racism. He had to clean up his own. But Gary is not the only sitting board member to face backlash after a public outcry. Nabi Saleh was embroiled in his own scandals when it came to light that his company, Gloria Jeans Coffee, was donating large sums of money to anti-gay christian lobbyists. At the same time, his coffee chain was also [00:13:00] found to be illegally short changing some of their workers, paying them half the minimum wage. 22 people came forward, and the company was forced to give them back pay. On top of that, his company, and hillsong itself, had public ties to a particularly troubling organization: Mercy Ministries.
Rae: They were hugely tied to Mercy Ministries, they marked themselves as uh, a place for people to come and get mental health treatment. And instead they were performing exorcisms for things like anorexia and doing horrible things to very vulnerable people. They took government money from these people even though they promised to be free as a service. Um, they took unemployment checks, they made over a million dollars in a single year.
kevin_brennecke: Yeah Mercy Ministries had very close ties to Hillsong, very close ties to Gloria Jeans, and Stephen Crouch is now the chairman of the board of Hillsong Global, and this is the guy who was the accountant of Mercy Ministries, which allegedly was using exorcisms to treat patients, um, but also found to be deceiving and misleading patients, uh, into collecting government money from them.
Rae: Yeah, I'm just counting here. I have the ACCC press release from when they were punishing Mercy Ministries. Um, and Crouch was one of 7 people held specifically financially responsible…
DAN VO: Both Nabi Saleh and Stephen Crouch have been tied to damaging and in some cases illegal conduct, and still, somehow, both have remained on the Hillsong board for years, in positions of power that impact the lives of over 150,000 congregants and staff globally.
kevin_brennecke: We are not trying to imply or allege that any one of these people are individually and directly responsible for these things. [00:15:00] However, when you look at what has been exposed about Hillsong Church and that includes financial improprieties and misconduct and personal. Misconduct whether abuse of volunteerism or sexual abuse or, or various things, how they have handled all of these things.
kevin_brennecke: And then you look at some of the conduct by Hillsong board members in their own endeavors, you know, and you see a very direct correlation between the two.
DAN: Regardless of the history, um, the tenets of capitalism being applied to the tenets of christianism is problematic at best. By having so many business people on your board, what it suggests to me is that if you have a lot of business people, you have a lot of money. For one, you need people who know what to do with money. Um, and generally what you do with money when it's coming in, in such large amounts is protect it, and make more of it. There's also the idea that you also know how to sell things. So I feel [00:16:00] going back to Carl Lentz's dad and sort of the business of church and then you. You know, Brian's book about how to make more money. I feel like you stack your board with people that understand finance management and ultimately protection of both those things. Um, which is strange for a church.
Rae: Yeah. It exposes the bottom line.
DAN: It seems as if they are putting profit over prayers.
Rae: Yeah.
kevin_brennecke: That's right.
DAN VO: At the time, after learning all of this, I considered the answer to this question to be a resounding "No". And maybe the collective Hillsong leadership thought so too, because just weeks after recording this conversation, Phil Dooley and Stephen Crouch made a shocking announcement to the Hillsong congregation. As a result of a board review conducted by an external agency, George Agahjanian, Nabi Saleh, Gary Clark, and Phil Denton would [00:17:00] be transitioned off of the Hillsong global board.
DAN VO: The announcement left many shocked. Like the Brian Houston departure, it signaled a truly significant and tangible change in Hillsong leadership. It severed ties with the most publicly problematic figures at the helm. It stood down the old guard. Hillsong leadership then announced plans to reseat the board with 5 new members - for a total of 10 - that would reflect the diversity in the church, and include 40% women. Looking on, I thought, I'll believe it when I see it. I wondered what it must be like for the remaining board members, left to deal with the damage done, and the shattered image of an evangelical empire.
DAN VO: And then, shortly after this announcement, I got a message from Delali. She'd met up with one of the remaining board members the night before, and wanted to tell me about it.
Delali: This person and I have [00:18:00] been, what I would consider friends for a decade. I just felt like I wanted to catch up with them because I know that they're still actively part of Hill Song.
DAN: They're actively like in the machine room trying to steer the ship.
Delali: That's it. They're actively trying to steer the ship somewhere.
DAN: Are they sort of horrified, mortified, just more incentivized to try and create change, try and salvage that good from the bad.
Delali: I left the conversation feeling like they weren't there to necessarily defend Hillsong as a brand, as a name. And so then I asked them, I was just like, So then why are you still. Like, why are you still part of this? Why are you still trying to steer the ship when it's actively in my opinion? Um, there was a sense [00:19:00] of, wanted to see with all the changes, if. it was really face value. Or if it's really, like, okay, we might have bombed royally, something went wrong. How do we find what went wrong and how do we uproot it? It seemed like they were not willing to, you know, to do this forever.
DAN: See in your opinion, they are staying around to, to see if the change is positive and they can be there to help usher in that change. Or they are sort of saying, I was a part of it for a long time now, and I feel a responsibility towards it.
Delali: From what I got, there was definitely sense of responsibility because this person they could have really seized the opportunity to use their voice to like, change things, there was definitely a sense of responsibility, definitely a little bit of guilt, and also sense of like, I'm gonna try to help fix this,[00:20:00] trying to certain wrongs that. Necessarily specifically, know, done by them, but done by the team that they were part of the leadership that they were part of. The report, opened their eyes to like the, the, the intensity of it all.
DAN VO: To clarify, the report Delali is referencing is the internal investigation report into Carl Lentz and Hillsong NYC that we discussed in episode 2.
Delali: Looking back there, they were just saying , like, Hey, is not just a group of people who are, who've had their feelings hurt. These are people's souls that were wounded.
DAN: Yeah
Delali: Who. Looked up to a thing that they believed in and were, um, gravely misled, know?[00:21:00] So they're doing whatever they can to save, to salvage whatever is left. It just seems like Just like everybody else who has been part of Hillsong who has left, they're just trying to figure it out. If there's any kind of frustration, is either that like, because they thought that their voice. Holds weight. And it doesn't, this person specifically, and they're, they're trying to figure it out within the role of, you know, their global leadership.
DAN: Since this has all gone down, what, how do they describe the hell song today?
Delali: There are definitely some practical changes that are happening, like getting rid of the green rooms and you know, pastors sticking around after service or whatever. But at the end of the day, the congregation is dwindling, so I'm. and the volunteers are dwindling. So I don't know which one [00:22:00] comes first. Is it, they're getting rid of the green rooms because nobody's out there to volunteer. You know what I mean? Like, are they sticking around? Because like, that's the only thing that they have to do because there's so few people left. Um, and it's, it's almost like it's too little, too late. I can say, to be honest, I can say that most people are not trying to go back to Hillsong. They're not gonna be like, Oh, they got rid of the VIP seating, let's go back. Like who fucking cares, you know?
DAN: Well, here's the. Since we have started this project, you have met with two senior people at Hillsong.
Delali: Mm-hmm.
DAN: Who are your friends and were part of it. When you were there, how do you compare their two responses to how things are happening? Just in terms of how they are processing the information while still being an active member and leader, leader.
Delali: Leaders.[00:23:00] From what I sensed from both of them, um, it's like I'm gonna give this x amount of time. Um, I don't know if the x amount of time is, I don't know if it's gonna be years or whatever, but I feel like. They don't see genuine active change, then that chapter of their life will probably end.
DAN: Right. Yeah. They, they feel a sense of duty and responsibility to give it the best shot to make it what they wanted it to be. And if that doesn't happen, then they are comfortable in their conscience that they tried. Yeah, I hope they have set a reasonable boundary of that. If it is not achieved, then they get out. hope change.
Delali: I don't know if there's gonna be, I, in my opinion, Hillsong as an organization, as a [00:24:00] entity that presented itself as a church. don't think, think it's possible at this point for it to like, produce genuine change. And the reason why, it goes back to our initial conversation about, you know, the analogy of like a tree and the root. I think the root is rotten and I don't think anybody can really save the root, even people with the best intentions. I think the tree needs to be burned to the ground and we need to just grow something new with what we have, cultivate something new with what we have. Ever since, I decided to no longer be part of Hillsong. Like even just to the music that I was so enamored with the music. sang the lyrics to, like I repeated like so many [00:25:00] times, of times. Even that stuff is quite triggering for me, that was a time back then, that was a time when I was singing these words. I was part of something I believed was good, but actually wasn't good. And I was, I got deeply wounded. We, we all got deeply wounded and now we're seeking and we're finding healing. We're finding a new life outside of Hillsong.
DAN VO: At this point, after months of correspondence, countless hours chatting on the phone, and days spent together in New York City, Delali still hadn't shared the details of her experience at Hillsong with me. I wasn't sure if it was out of embarrassment, or the pain of reliving the details, or even that she felt a need to protect people involved, even if [00:26:00] they hurt her. But after her meeting with the Hillsong board member, I felt a sense of finality in her voice. An assurance that this was all coming to an end. So I asked Delali if she would share her story. And, finally, she did...