On April 11th, 2022, barely two weeks after the release of the documentary series, The Christian Post released an explosive article: a summation of a 51-page report from Hillsong’s internal investigation into Carl Lentz and Hillsong NYC that was leaked to the publication.
On April 11th, 2022, barely two weeks after the release of the documentary series, The Christian Post released an explosive article: a summation of a 51-page report from Hillsong’s internal investigation into Carl Lentz and Hillsong NYC that was leaked to the publication. The leaked report describes an environment in which Lentz and Hillsong NYC had “free rein” to operate as they pleased, with virtually no oversight or accountability from Global Hillsong leadership. Dan breaks down the shocking new details with Hillsong NYC insider, Delali, and institutional trauma counselor, Loxie Gant.
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Find episode transcripts here: https://hillsong-a-megachurch-shattered.simplecast.com/episodes/ep2-the-lentz-report
[00:00:00] DAN VO: This episode may contain explicit language and themes such as sexual assault and violence. Listener discretion is advised.
[00:00:10] Delali: We have to remember that Carl was considered, I don't wanna say a God, but like, you know, people basically worshiped the ground that Carl walked on.
[00:00:22] DAN VO: I'm Dan Johnstone, and this is Hillsong: A Megachurch Shattered from Discovery+.[00:00:30]
On February 16th, 2022, the trailer for Hillsong: A Megachurch Exposed was released. Our team was excited but nervous to share the first glimpse of what amounted to over a year of hard work and many emotional highs and lows. In
the first 24 hours, it had over a million views. Thousands of shares and comments flooded YouTube and social media. We were in awe. But even then, we had no idea what was coming just [00:01:00] ahead. In the weeks leading up to, and following, the release of the documentary all hell broke loose inside Hillsong. A shocking series of events and disclosures hit front page news and the pillars that once held Hillsong to extraordinary heights, began crashing down.
[00:01:15] Delali: The documentary came out and around the same time a lot of things happened within Hillsong. The day before the documentary came out, correct, like it was publicly announced that Brian was, you know, no longer [00:01:30] the official leader of Hillsong.
[00:01:32] DAN: Yeah. March 23rd, Brian Houston resigns. I would say that he had no choice but to resign.
[00:01:39] Delali: Absolutely.
[00:01:40] DAN: And then the documentary comes out March 24th. [00:01:44] Delali: Yeah. How did you feel about that?
[00:01:47] DAN: I have never been part of something that even has the impression of causing real time change. Ultimately, I hoped it was for the good.
I think the, one of the important things to mention is that, Hillsong [00:02:00] knew when the documentary was coming out.
[00:02:01] Delali: Really?
[00:02:02] DAN: They knew the date of release. As part of making a documentary about this and part of talking about Brian, talking about Hillsong, talking about Carl, I personally sent letters, emails, phone calls and Instagram DMs to all of them to say, hey, we're making this, we'd love for you to, to, to speak on it, to to speak to us. We'd love to interview you. Um, and they all refused. Either they said nothing or they refused. [00:02:30] And so, yeah. Trailer comes out February 16th, um, March 18th, so six days before the documentary is released, I am, I start getting in the evening, I start getting a lot of text messages from some confidential sources saying there's an emergency meeting at Hillsong. It's all staff, all hands on deck, emergency meeting, and everybody was kind [00:03:00] of taken aback like, oh wow, something's happening. Me personally, how it felt from the outside was that that was a hastily organized meeting to discuss what they thought was gonna be in the documentary.
[00:03:14] Delali: Really?
[00:03:15] DAN: I, I thought it was. Sort of a, a game of brinksmanship, we quickly better say some things that are vulnerabilities to us. We should get ahead of it.
[00:03:24] DAN VO: The contents of this emergency meeting were leaked to an Australian publication called Crikey and [00:03:30] investigative reporter David Hardaker, who has covered Hillsong for years. In it, interim pastor Phil Dooley goes into detail about two separate instances of misconduct by Brian Houston. Misconduct the church had known about for years. Misconduct, I have to speculate, Hillsong worried might be covered in our doc, otherwise, why would they come clean now? The timing just felt odd.
[00:03:51] DAN: So March 24th, the documentary comes out. April 8th, Bobby Houston is made redundant from Hillsong. Brian tweets their [00:04:00] text exchange, his feelings about it. A number of Hillsong pastors resign. Atlanta, Arizona, which is important it's Arizona ‘cause that's where the campus is in America. And then we can't forget that this is also while Brian is still under a criminal investigation into covering up his father's crimes, um, his father's crimes being sexual assault of a minor, well, I guess rape of a minor.
[00:04:28] DAN VO: Brian continues to deny these [00:04:30] charges against him and is pleading not guilty.
[00:04:33] DAN: So yeah, we have this two month period where the Hillsong we were looking at when we started the film, is utterly different than the Hillsong we saw at the end of the film. We're not saying we caused this, we're not saying that we were the the straw that broke the camel's back, but the documentary and what it is saying and what it was looking at, suddenly becomes part of this conversation. There was a clear change. [00:05:00] April 11th, the internal investigation of Hillsong NYC and Carl Lentz's leadership is leaked through the Christian Post newspaper.
[00:05:09] DAN VO: The investigation completed by a law firm in New York City was commissioned by Hillsong itself shortly after Carl's firing. Now a year and a half later, it’s suddenly reported on by Christian Post journalist Leonardo Blair. The full document was never leaked. Leonardo published excerpts from the report and summations of certain findings, and still, it's far more damning [00:05:30] than I could ever have imagined. I don't think anyone saw this coming. The article was packed with allegations of mental and emotional damage inflicted by Carl Lentz and other Hillsong New York City leaders. Multiple staff and volunteers reported that Lentz caused them to suffer from mental illness as a result. According to the Christian Post, the report contains allegations detailing the disturbing depth of Carl's adulturous sexual promiscuity that seemed to spread amongst the church staff, with multiple incidents of consensual or non-consensual sexual [00:06:00] interaction between church leaders and congregants, staff, volunteers or non-church goers. The report also claims Lentz admitted to having three affairs, one of which was with his nanny, Leona Kimes, whom with he engaged in quote, more than 20, but less than 100 sexual acts, end quote, that he referred to as, quote, manipulated intimacy, end quote. Carl himself admitted to covering all of this up by being a, quote unquote, good liar. And, what's more, the article painted a [00:06:30] picture of a culture where accountability was non-existent and Carl's power reigned supreme. It was a culture that Delali and others at Hillsong New York City endured for years.
[00:06:41] DAN: The thing I think is most important for you, and you in this, is that it's talking about you. It's talking about a group that you were a part of, not you specifically, but it's talking about something that you were connected to.
[00:06:50] Delali: What were your, uh, what were your first impressions when you read it?
[00:06:54] DAN: My immediate reaction when I read it was, this is a much, much, much bigger story than we reported on. [00:07:00] it's a much, much bigger story than we had access to tell, and I think how deep this goes, um, and how explosive it feels reading it, it is amazing that we didn't get anywhere close to any of it.
[00:07:15] Delali: When it came out and I read it, my initial thought was, you know, obviously nobody should come out of an experience, let alone a religious organization, with mental trauma. Right?
[00:07:29] DAN: Right.
[00:07:29] Delali: [00:07:30] But,
[00:07:30] DAN: Any kind of trauma.
[00:07:31] Delali: Any kind of trauma, and those same leaders weren't always the greatest people.
[00:07:38] DAN: Yeah.
[00:07:38] Delali: And it was almost like, monkey see monkey do. And I'm not saying that everything that they saw Carl doing they would replicate, but there was a sense of free reign. Right?
[00:07:51] DAN: Well, I think it's interesting to say. So you are saying that from your own point of view, as being a part of it, ‘cause that's what the report says also.
[00:07:57] Delali: Yeah, 100%. Right. [00:08:00] 100%. We did our own thing led by Carl.
[00:08:02] DAN: Right.
[00:08:03] Delali: And it kept growing, so that was okay until it became just unsupervised foolishness. It just, just became like unsupervised, like fuckery, you know? So then you get people who were leaders who were kind of, didn't know what they were doing, and they misled a lot of people. A lot of people.
[00:08:26] DAN: I feel like I need a little bit of clarity on that.
[00:08:28] Delali: Okay.
[00:08:29] DAN: Like what do you, [00:08:30] like misled how?
[00:08:35] Delali: With great power comes great responsibility. When you call yourself a pastor, just that word, just comes with a lot of responsibility that I think most pastors did not, could not handle. When you lead by example and you see that the example is just, bending the rules. Cool. I'm gonna bend the rules. But then sometimes the rules were bent too [00:09:00] much and it, it created, um, unhealthy spaces.
[00:09:04] DAN: Right.
[00:09:06] DAN VO: As a pastor, your duty is to follow and teach the example set by Jesus. And yes, Jesus was a rule breaker in his day. He dined with sinners, touched lepers and flipped tables in a temple. But each rule Jesus broke, he did so in service of another. With Carl, it seems like each rule was broken in service of himself and fame and power, [00:09:30] according to the report, that was the example he set for those under him to follow. An example that, according to Delali, many did.
[00:09:41] DAN: What do you think would happen if Carl made a comeback? Like this weekend? He sent out a message that he was gonna speak?
[00:09:47] Delali: I think a lot of people would have a lot of questions. I think a lot of people will feel frustrated. Um, Okay. I think if he kind of announced like, hey, I'm gonna be in New [00:10:00] York. I'm gonna be doing a Q and A, the lines will be around the block for sure. If he just kind of came out of hiatus and was like, Oh, I'm back, you know, being a pastor and let me tell you about Jesus. Um, people will be like, Yeah, no, read the room.
[00:10:16] DAN: In this report, there are a number of things that are alarming, I think. Um, but there is one, I think that gets brought up. The one phrase that sort of jumped out and I think I stick on, is, um, [00:10:30] manipulated intimacy, which um, feels like a very dense term. Um, I'm not sure how to unpack it without taking a hard turn one way or the other, but I'll just read it in the context of how it, how it is used. According to the Christian Post, the report claims that Lentz admitted to subliminally encouraging a relationship with the married Kimes, with whom he engaged in at least 20, but less than 100 sex acts, which he described as manipulated [00:11:00] intimacy.
[00:11:01] DAN VO: To clarify, the married Kimes the report refers to is Leona Kimes, who at the time was Carl and Laura Lentz's full-time nanny, who was also employed through Hillsong Church. Before this report was even leaked, Leona had come forward with her story in a post on Medium where she claimed Carl's advances were unwanted. In it, she wrote, I was physically violated by his unwanted and repeated sexual touching of my intimate areas. I froze. Every time I froze.
[00:11:28] DAN: This is a direct quote from the report. [00:11:30] There are certain things in Carl's life that would make him feel a dangerous or pleasurable feeling. He called it manipulated intimacy.
[00:11:38] Delali: Wow.
[00:11:38] DAN: Um. Yeah. I mean, so, uh, how do you, knowing him, how do you interpret that?
[00:11:47] Delali: The thing is, it, it, it makes sense because Carl was only surrounded by Yes People. Throughout the years, basically everything that he wanted, was [00:12:00] done by somebody. So this thing that's like dangerous, that's pleasurable, kind of toying around it, whatever he wanted, it would make sense that he would get it from her. Um, and also the fact that like, you know, we have to remember that Carl, was considered, I don't wanna say a God, but like, you know, people basically worshiped the ground that Carl walked on. So, um, the power dynamic [00:12:30] between both of them was definitely such that like Leonna wouldn't have been comfortable telling him no. Especially if it's things that are kind of like blurry where the lines are a little bit blurry. You know?
[00:12:43] DAN: The thing that stands out to me, and it's something that you had mentioned, I think, actually, in our first ever conversation. Everyone that I've spoken to that has had any interaction with him, talks about him having a
very focused and pointed connection with you. And it happens very, very quickly. He [00:13:00] instantly just went for the one to one. And that like leveling of the gaze or hand on the arm, made that person feel like they were the only person that he was talking to. People that have had, like, minor interactions with him, talk about just this laser beam of connection.
[00:13:16] Delali: Yeah.
[00:13:17] DAN: Um, and then, when you bring that into an even more private space, he knew that when he connected with you, you're under his spell. And so
as I interpret that, when the terms dangerous and [00:13:30] pleasurable are used, it makes me feel, it is something that he is aware that he can do and is doing it. That's how I read it. Everything that people say that he could do, he knew that he could do.
[00:13:42] Delali: I agree with you, and I think that was definitely used to his advantage to get what he wanted. Whether it was, uh, you know, a video done from me or a sermon from somebody else last minute, or a bagel brought to him or [00:14:00] manipulated intimacy, like, that power was definitely built on connection with people. And then he used it to his advantage. He had the controls, because he had the power controls. He had the you're working for me controls, and we're doing all of this stuff for God. And then that's, and then the intimacy was able to be manipulated in that space.
[00:14:24] DAN VO: So many interpretations and so much meaning can be packed into just two simple words that are anything but [00:14:30] simple. But what's very clear from the report is that Carl and Hillsong, New York City, cross many lines. Lines that are drawn in secular society, let alone in church. But while the report isolates Carl and the leadership of Hillsong, NYC, I'm curious about how it reflects back on Hillsong itself.[00:15:00]
[00:15:01] DAN: There she is. Hello!
[00:15:07] Loxie: Hello!
[00:15:09] DAN VO: So I've decided to meet up with Loxie Gant, who appeared in the documentary to help us dissect the Royal Commission documents on Frank Houston and Hillsong's subsequent response. Loxie is a counselor and an expert on institutional abuse and how it's perpetuated.
[00:15:23] DAN: Loxie, why don't you tell me how have things been since we last saw you in the on [00:15:30] the doc?
[00:15:30] Loxie: It's been a year. The doc coming out, my business shifted into a lot of people deprogramming from big religious organizations, megachurches or um, or work groups. And so it was really interesting how much of overlap I really saw after, you know, the deep dive into Hillsong and how much it applied to all my other work.
[00:15:51] DAN: Um, I know we've talked about this a lot, but I've never actually asked, what is, can you tell me, like, what deprogramming means?
[00:15:58] Loxie: Yeah. Deprogramming [00:16:00] is the opposite of programming. It's the process of recalibrating reality, versus, versus whatever's been told to you by the people trying to control you.
[00:16:13] DAN: It's interesting to think about how you can have positive reinforcement within a negative environment.
[00:16:18] Loxie: Yeah.
[00:16:18] DAN: And I think that is a lot of what I've noticed from talking to people from Hillsong and talking to people from other institutions, similar to, in that they, the, the [00:16:30] ultimate belief is good, but the way in which the institution achieves that good is sometimes through sort of negative means or, or means that make you feel sort of subservient to something else.
[00:16:41] Loxie: Yeah, and that's really a big part of the deprogramming too, is separating positive from the negative and realizing that those two things can coexist and not all of the entire experience was bad.
[00:16:55] DAN: I certainly appreciate all the work that you do. I appreciate the work that you've done for me, to [00:17:00] focus it back onto Hill Song. So this report comes out from a legal firm and we tried as hard as we could to try and get the actual source. We've confirmed the source, we've asked the people who published excerpts from it. But I think just from your work and your background, what is it? Um, why would, why would an institution like Hillsong even do a report like this?
[00:17:27] Loxie: Well, it actually is really common [00:17:30] for organizations to hire a law firm to do a, quote unquote, independent investigation. So technically the organization is the client. So when you do something like this, the outcome is usually favorable to the organization to some extent. In reading this article, you know, a lot of what the, investigation, quote unquote, led me to was pinning a lot of it on Hillsong America, um, with [00:18:00] very little consideration about how Hillsong culture, or even how Hillsong as a, as a global organization had handled sexual misconduct allegations in the past. This was purely a look at East Coast and how that was to blame.
[00:18:18] DAN: I, I feel like, the, this report clearly delineates New York and Carl. So the, whatever the reaction is from that, they can say, despite the [00:18:30] awful nature of this leadership and what was happening and it being,
you know, wheels off, we dealt with it because we have isolated the problem and we have cut it out.
[00:18:38] Loxie: I read it as the institution wanting to distance themselves from the scandal and show that they were in the dark and they had no idea and that they're going to take what they learned and apply it. However, I have very little reason to believe that, um, that in [00:19:00] earnest, that's what they want.
[00:19:01] DAN: Yeah. Um, alright, well let's move on to the part that is the most sensitive because of its subject matter. And I would like to state first of all, these are sensitive, personal, and difficult matters to deal with and discussing them, is very, there's a lot of trepidation in dealing with these kind of things, but it has to do with sex and sexual abuse, um, and sexual misconduct. [00:19:30] I'll read from the Christian Post when interviewed in December, 2020, about his sexual misconduct, which allegedly included massages, three affairs and exposing himself to his housekeeper, investigators said Lentz appeared to be generally forthcoming and candid about most of it. Last year, Leona Kimes, who served as a nanny for, for Lentz and his wife for seven years, and currently leads Hillsong Boston with her husband Josh Kimes, accused Lentz of, quote, repeated sexual touching, end quote, in a post on medium. [00:20:00] Lentz who describes Leona Kimes as someone who, quote, got her identity from the Lentz family, end quote, admits to subliminally encouraging a relationship with the married Kimes, with whom he engaged in at least 20, but less than 100 sex acts.
[00:20:15] DAN VO: The report goes on to describe Carl's wife, Laura, catching them in the act one night after Leona had tried marijuana for the first time. Laura stood and watched while Karl rubbed Leona's legs, and they touched hands. According to the report, Laura [00:20:30] reacted by punching Leona in the face multiple times. Then Carl and Leona allegedly gaslit Laura into doubting her own eyes.
[00:20:40] DAN: Laura Lentz said at that point she wanted Kines out of their lives but her husband convinced her to keep Kimes on because it was better to keep your friends close, but keep your enemies closer. Kimes also wanted to get out of the situation, but Lentz allegedly told her, you think you could get another job? You don't even have a college degree. [00:21:00] Yeah, I mean, in, in these quotes there's sexual misconduct, there's physical, um, physical assault, punching her in the face
[00:21:11] Loxie: drug use.
[00:21:12] DAN: Um, gas lighting.
[00:21:14] Loxie: Yeah. I think the statement of keep your friends close and your enemies closer is somehow Carl saying that Leona's the enemy of their marriage instead of Carl being the enemy of their marriage. And I hate [00:21:30] that he said that she got her identity from the Lentz family. You know, that's very much saying in a way that she owed them this. Well, and then, you know, there's this question of how much control did she really have to say no? She was employed and part of her wages and employment was based on her being willing to comply with Carl. So you had to comply by his wishes and his demands, or was it just [00:22:00] feeling a pure sense of false idol worship for a guy that she was told is, you know, the next big thing and that he needed to be protected at all costs.
[00:22:12] DAN: Yeah. I think to tie this back to our documentary, is the line that he's crossing is his consistent preaching of purity culture. We have heard in the documentary, the impact of that preaching of purity culture on people that were under his, um, [00:22:30] direction.
[00:22:30] Loxie: Yeah.
[00:22:31] DAN: One of the reasons I wanna speak to Carl is 'cause I want to say to him, how do you reconcile those two lives? Not with yourself, but with the people that you're preaching to. How do you speak to the people that you brought down judgment, guidance, and prescriptive behavior on? Because they're the people that are hurting the most, that she was reporting this, she was sounding an alarm.
[00:22:52] DAN VO: These allegations from the report. This behavior displayed by Carl Lentz is what Hillsong Global seems so eager to distance itself from. [00:23:00] But for a decade, Hillsong helped establish and supported Hillsong, NYC's identity and culture that grew closer and closer to secular mainstream. So I can't help but wonder, what did they expect?
[00:23:12] DAN: When you do cross church culture and pop culture, it feels to me dealing in a strange space, because pop culture is, is the selling of image. There's sex and there's attraction, and there's envy and ego, and a [00:23:30] lot of things that make us use the word rockstar as a catchall for somebody that is flamboyant and larger than life and…
[00:23:38] Loxie: money and power.
[00:23:39] DAN: Money and power. Reading the report. I'm just reading that being like, Yeah, this is, This is why pop culture exists, externally from religious culture.
[00:23:49] Loxie: Right? There's so much of that celebrity crossover power where the idea in Christianity is don't worship a false idol. These preachers become the false idols [00:24:00] that are then being worshiped.
[00:24:01] DAN: Yeah. A hundred percent. And then leading back to the report. When you combine that power, when you combine that glory, fame, impact, you get this, which is, is problematic. I feel like religion in general can put you in a very vulnerable state because you're looking for something.
[00:24:20] Loxie: Well, yeah, people go to religion in order to make sense of earthly things that they can't quantify, and then Evangelicalism has [00:24:30] always been on that precipice of what people want at that moment in time, and that's how they've been able to stay. Once TV was there, it was getting into family TVs and it's Christian radio and it's Christian music, and it's finding ways to access people wherever they are at. What Carl Lenz was able to do was penetrate like a, quote unquote Illuminati, status of celebrity that hadn't been connected to before, and that's why Brian Houston is an evil genius and plucked him out and made [00:25:00] him what he made him.
[00:25:01] DAN: Building from that. I'm gonna read another quote here, from the, from the report. The Australian mothership never established effective oversight and accountability for the New York lead pastor, investigators said. This lack of oversight permitted Carl to assume the role of final arbiter of what was proper behavior for everyone in New York, himself included. With the benefit of hindsight, given Lentz's personal limitations, this was a recipe for trouble. There was no [00:25:30] handling of that situation in the way that it should have been handled, in, on lots of different levels. And what strikes me is this situation, is that it was dealt with. Once it came out, and we don't know how long they knew about these things, but it was quick and decisive. It was, it was Carl and it was, and it was Carl and it was HillSong, NYC. And this is what's happened. This is how awful it was. But we have dealt with it and it needs to be better and we can do better. That's what I take mainly from the report, is that [00:26:00] they acted quick and swiftly and othered it very, very quickly.
[00:26:05] Loxie: Correct.
[00:26:05] DAN: Um, where there's, in other situations that we discussed in the documentary, they didn't do that.
[00:26:13] DAN VO: I have to question why Hillsong would even feel the need to do an independent investigation like this. If they believed Hillsong, NYC to truly be an outlier, a part of the church that grew towards darkness and lost its way, if they really wanted to fix the culture that had been perpetuated there, why wouldn't they have gone there themselves? [00:26:30] To talk to their staffers, their volunteers, and their congregants, and allow people to open up about the issues? In the report itself, it seems clear that Hillsong Global actually heard about the complaints against Carl while they were happening, but ignored the warning signs.
[00:26:49] DAN: Tolu Batters, who was an employee staff member, this is from the report, stated that she had conversations with Global where they understood that Carl Lenz was a [00:27:00] challenging person. She stated that it was sort of implied that Lentz was a younger version of Brian Houston and that she should stay in it and Lentz would change, investigators noted. This crosses over from that which was just New York, NYC. She's referring to the global leadership of, of Hillsong. That she was reporting this, she was sounding an alarm.
[00:27:18] Loxie: Well, if you're reporting that someone is a challenging person, you're saying that they don't act in an ideal way of someone in a leadership role. And by [00:27:30] validating that that's how Brian Houston is too, in a way tells her, that's acceptable here. It's gonna be okay. You just have to stick it out and deal with it and he'll grow up eventually. We dealt with that with Brian. It's a classic PR thing. They do think that them correlating the actions of Lentz to the actions of Houston looks way more damaging for them than for anything else.
[00:27:57] DAN VO: From the excerpts published from the report, it [00:28:00] clearly paints a picture of Carl Lentz far beyond just being a challenging person. It paints a picture of a manipulator, a liar, and an abuser. Without the full document, it's hard to get a sense of what specifically was actually reported to Hillsong Global, but even before this leak, I wondered how could the abusive culture at Hillsong, NYC have been kept in the dark for so long? And one section in the report seems to provide an answer.
[00:28:27] DAN: From the Christian Post, the [00:28:30] report further details how sexual misconduct, including multiple misdeeds by Lentz and the alleged circulation by other staffers of penis photos to staffers and volunteers was covered up. Some who gave depositions claimed that many who reported or attempted to report misconduct face retaliation. Um, there's a lot, there's a lot in there. They're just challenging words and, and, uh, conclusions to read.
[00:28:53] Loxie: Yeah.
[00:28:54] DAN: And I wonder, Loxie, if you can talk about this from an institutional [00:29:00] point of view. Um, retaliation, um, many who reported or attempted to report misconduct, face retaliation.
[00:29:11] Loxie: It's common. Um, be it just through a threat or it could be even a spiritual form of retaliation of faith or trust in the organization. To me, it shows a whole culture of, of, accept [00:29:30] all things don't challenge leadership or you will be removed, not the problem will be removed.
[00:29:37] DAN: Yeah. It's difficult to understand it. And it's difficult to understand the meaning of that retaliation, like I thought we were all in this together. It's sad, it's confusing.
[00:29:46] Loxie: The retaliation also creates a fear of disclosure too. When people aren't able or when they're still in the process of deprogramming, it's very hard to trust your instincts and to know who to trust. That's a huge recipe [00:30:00] for disaster.
[00:30:02] DAN: It really is, and I think we've said it a long time, and I think if you come from a culture that this was the way things were, then of course you don't wanna speak to an outsider.
[00:30:11] Loxie: Once you've been harmed by an institution, it becomes very difficult to trust any institution at all with your secrets or your power.
[00:30:23] DAN VO: Facing retaliation for speaking up, or even just simple honesty, is a tactic of Carl's we heard in the documentary. [00:30:30] But this tactic isn't unique to Carl. We saw other tactics of cover up and coercion used
by Hillsong. Like hush money to Frank Houston's victim, Brett Sengstock. But now as the barrier of coerced silence grows thinner around Hillsong, whistleblowers are breaking through. And to better understand how Hillsong, NYC fell from grace, I have to go back to the beginning. I have to look at Hillsong's long and controversial history in Australia, so I'm tracking those whistleblowers down.[00:31:00]
[00:31:08] Jacob Harrison: It was referred to as a Christian based rehab. It's, it's not, it's a Hillsong indoctrination camp with a, with a mild interest in rehabilitation. And I'm thinking, Oh my God, is this Jonestown?
[00:31:24] Geoff Bullock: Frank was basically using gay conversion therapy, uh, in a [00:31:30] way that was really, uh, sexual abuse. The concept of the kingdom, the church, building a kingdom. I, I was prepared to do things that were against my conscience. We had to protect the kingdom and the church at all costs.