Dan connects with former Hillsong Boston volunteer, Noemi Uribe, who shares her personal pursuit of healing, change, and identity outside of Hillsong.
Dan connects with former Hillsong Boston volunteer, Noemi Uribe, who shares her personal pursuit of healing, change, and identity outside of Hillsong. Dan’s journey then takes him to the controversial Hillsong College, which was recently forced to relocate its campus from Phoenix, Arizona to Orange County, California. Joined by former Hillsong College students Bailey Krawczyk and Joe Sanders, Dan makes a discovery that suggests Hillsong’s own pronouncement of systemic change may be a facade.
Watch Hillsong: A Megachurch Exposed on discovery+. Go to discoveryplus.com/hillsong to start your 7-day free trial today. Terms apply.
Find episode transcripts here: https://hillsong-a-megachurch-shattered.simplecast.com/episodes/ep4-let-there-be-light
[00:00:00] DAN VO: This episode may contain explicit language and themes
such as sexual assault and violence. Listener discretion is advised.
[00:00:07] Noemi: My dad was a pastor and a preacher, and so whenever we
were invited to places, I had to put on this mask of I'm the perfect child of this
person. So I learned really quickly how to do that, how to not be me in any
setting.
[00:00:24] DAN VO: I'm Dan Johnstone, and this is Hillsong: A Megachurch
Shattered from Discovery plus. In 2016, Terry Christ, lead pastor of City of
Grace Church in Phoenix, Arizona made an announcement that was meant to
usher in a new and exciting era for his church.
[00:00:52] Terry Crist: Today we become Hillsong Church Phoenix. I feel
stronger [00:01:00] about this than anything God has ever said to me. We are
stepping into the future with the clearest word that God has spoken to me in my
life.
[00:01:14] DAN VO: With this move, Hillsong was acquiring a megachurch of
its own. The City of Grace had three church campuses serving the Phoenix area,
Mesa, Scottsdale, and downtown Phoenix with thousands of congregants. After
six years of rapidly growing notoriety in New York City, Hillsong would now
have an established presence in the Western US with plans to spread into
California and beyond.
[00:01:38] DAN VO: In the following years under the Hillsong banner, the
church spread, launching campuses in Tucson and Las Vegas. But most
importantly, the new minted Hillsong Phoenix provided the infrastructure for
something critical to Hillsong's growth and expansion in the US. An American
college. Hillsong had a successful college in Sydney, which [00:02:00] steadily
produced congregants, volunteers, givers, and future pastoral superstars like
Carl Lentz and now in Phoenix, Hillsong had a new incubator on American soil.
But in the wake of Hillsong's unraveling, in the spring of 2022, Terry made
another announcement that would, again, reshape the future of his church and
Hillsong.
[00:02:22] Terry Crist: It has become clear that we cannot continue in our
global family as much as we love it, and so we have chosen this week to
withdraw from being Hillsong Church. First, why are we taking this action?
Over the past year, following the sin that was exposed at Hillsong Church, New
York City, and the subsequent investigation that was conducted into sexual
misconduct and into financial misappropriation, I encouraged the results of that
report to be made in some general form.
[00:02:57] Terry Crist: I understand the sensitivity of that. I asked [00:03:00]
that the report be redacted so names could be protected. I asked that the report
be synopsized so that we could embrace accountability and transparency. And
for whatever reason, that request was denied. As information began to leak out
as to what was in the report, and as the global board made the decision to
increase financial controls within the churches, lead pastors were suddenly
asked to sign NDAs and non-competes, meaning that if we were removed from
our positions, we could not plant churches again within our community for at
least one year. Last Saturday, after months of trying to gain approval to re-seat
our local board, we formally requested the release of our church back to us. We
wanted to continue by returning governance and accountability, but even
continuing with the banner Hillsong Phoenix for many reasons, [00:04:00]
including our love, our deep love for Hillsong College.
[00:04:05] Terry Crist: Sadly, the board refused our request and I was told this
past week, it is quote, all or nothing close quote. We either had to allow the
global board to govern our church and to own our properties, or we had to leave.
And so with great sadness, I chose to leave.
[00:04:28] DAN VO: Pastor Christ wouldn't subdue to Hillsong Global's strong
arming, but he went further than that, delivering a passionate plea, a loud and
clear call for reform of the evangelical corporate culture where misconduct
seems to thrive and secrets run deep.
[00:04:46] Terry Crist: I love the global church and will continue to. But I also
believe it is in the best interest of Hillsong Church to conduct an internal
investigation as it relates to board conduct, to [00:05:00] immediately restore
the Sydney Eldership, to make the findings of that public and to dismiss the
board members who have protected the institution and not the people. And
when secular corporations are more transparent than the church, and when
secular boards hold their employees and directors to a higher standard of
accountability, we have failed the injunction. That judgment must begin at the
house of God, so that the people of God stand as a prophetic kingdom witness to
the nations of the earth. It is vital that we get it right..
[00:05:41] DAN VO: Pastor Christ then went on to say the exact words that
Hillsong should have said long ago. Words that thousands of victims hurt by
Hillsong have been hoping to hear for years.
[00:05:51] Terry Crist: I also wanna offer a couple of other important
statements. Our hearts are broken for anyone who has been victimized
[00:06:00] by anyone, anywhere, for any reason in Hillsong church or college.
Let's build a church that values people in every way. Let's build a culture where
truth can be told without fear of repercussion, without NDAs and non-competes
and covering things that should be transparently reported on. Let's build a
culture of honor without idolatry. Let's build a culture where victims are seen
and are heard, and are validated and are healed. Let's build a culture, a pastoral
servanthood, and not corporate leadership. Let's build a culture that values
righteousness. And justice, and let's build a church that looks like heaven, not
the systems of this world.
[00:06:59] DAN VO: On the heels of [00:07:00] Brian Houston's departure,
Pastor Christ's announcement shocked the Hillsong community. It was sudden,
sharp and sure. And it felt like he was unsure if Hillsong Global was committed
to the deep change required to heal the roots of the church. So he was taking
change into his own hands. And losing the Phoenix campuses was a huge blow
to the Hillsong Global network. They lost five church campuses and the home
of their prized American college, but the college didn't close. It relocated from
Phoenix to Southern California. I ended up visiting the new College,
[00:07:35] Bailey: There it is.
[00:07:36] DAN: You wanna just walk in?
[00:07:37] Bailey: Yah let's do it.
[00:07:38] DAN VO: Which we'll get into later in the episode, but first I wanted
to catch up with Noemi Uribe, who shared part of her story in the documentary.
The story of Pastor Crist and Hillsong Phoenix reminded me of Noemi, a
volunteer at Hillsong Boston. Noemi's treatment was so bad it left her
completely broken, but since she's left the church, [00:08:00] Noemi, like Pastor
Crist, has taken a proactive and practical approach to change. So I caught up
with her to find out how she is healing from the scars left by her experience at
Hillsong.
[00:08:14] Noemi: Hello!
[00:08:15] DAN: Hi! Since you were last in the dock, like gave me the
rundown, what's been happening?
[00:08:21] Noemi: What has been happening? So at the time I was still
processing a lot, trying to heal, continuing therapy. I had accepted a lot of toxic
behavior because of what I was used to at Hillsong.
[00:08:38] DAN: Do you think you were not yourself when you were at
Hillsong?
[00:08:43] Noemi: Oh no, not at all. Growing up, I, my dad was a pastor and a
preacher, and so whenever we were invited to places, I had to put on this mask
of I'm the perfect child of this person. I am a representation of them. [00:09:00]
So I learned really quickly how to do that, how to not be me in any setting. And
that also included like my gender identity and my sexual orientation.
[00:09:12] Noemi: So when I got to. Hillsong, I, I realized that I put on that
mask again, and I had to also present this very perfect person that had their shit
together, that wasn't going through a mental health crisis, that wasn't having
anxiety attacks every single Sunday. So, no, I, I was not myself at all. Um, and
when I left in December of 2019, I still went back in February and I still kept in
contact with people because it felt safer to go back to the, the abuse than to
actually rebuild and heal. It felt more comfortable in my brain.
[00:09:59] DAN: [00:10:00] Even despite the pain, despite the, mental
consternation and things. It is still comfortable. You know, you left and then you
went back.
[00:10:09] Noemi: When you're in a place like Hillsong, it could kind of
become an addiction. Like what you get out of it is usually like the community,
the friends, the adrenaline of like being there for hours like that can become
addicting. And honestly, the pandemic really, really did help me cut it off
because they weren't in person. Um, and that's where a lot of my deconstruction
and my separation and the addiction started to end. And that's where, um, a few
months later, in 2020, I went into the psychiatric hospital again, um, to continue
to heal and like reset. Um, because it was a lot of realizations that were hitting.
There was a lot of trial and error. There was a lot of [00:11:00] reflection. A lot
of healing. I didn't go to church for a long time. Um, I didn't wanna talk to faith
leaders because that was like really triggering to me. So to have gone through
that, allowing me the space to have that grievance away from those, those
people , um, and, and going to therapy and like really working. Um, and having
a therapist who is actually trauma informed, cuz some therapists may not have
that and so it may be a little bit more difficult.
[00:11:31] DAN: There is one thing I did wanna ask about because I, we
touched on it and I can remember being on the off ramp of the 101 when you
mentioned it. Um, , I don't why, I can't remember exactly where I was when we
were talking about it, but it was something that really struck me, um, in. The
world of trauma therapy, religious trauma therapy is in a very nascent, like
brand new stage. And something that you brought to my attention so pointedly,
is that [00:12:00] you wanted to speak to somebody that not necessarily looked
like you, but it had experienced the world in, in a similar way to you that you
could relate to. And you were saying like, that's so hard to find because the
journey to get to a therapist level, costs so much money and privilege and time
that the pool of, of, of people that you wanted to talk to was smaller.
[00:12:21] Noemi: Yeah, religious trauma is a new, a new way of thinking, a
new way of looking at people who've experienced religious abuse, um, and
spiritual abuse. And it is difficult to find a provider or to find someone who's
qualified to support you. When I did my search and like I broke it down to what
I was looking.
[00:12:43] Noemi: Someone who was a trauma informed, who was Latinx, um,
who was also queer, um, and who was okay with talking about religion, I had
two options. The first one said no, and I was lucky that the second one said yes.
And we've [00:13:00] been, We've been together, I've been seeing him for about
four years now. And the work continues. Like the work doesn't stop within me.
Um, and I'm gonna keep going. But for other folks who don't have the ability to
do that, um, there are resources that I have found online. Um, on social media
like Reclamation Collective. Uh, they've been doing amazing work, um, through
support groups, um, to help people process religious trauma.
[00:13:36] Noemi: Um, I was fortunate to be a part of the, the Hillsong support
group virtually, uh, and it has helped me so much to reflect in different ways to
work on my, uh, victimization, like accepting the abuse and, and like
recognizing that it wasn't my fault. And that it's been really nice to have that in a
support group and to talk to other people who've had similar experience,
[00:14:00] uh, within a religious context and, and more specifically within
Hillsong.
[00:14:04] Noemi: Um, and there's other organizations that provide more
specifically to, um, LGBTQ youth who have had religious trauma, uh, because
of their gender identity or sexual orientation. Um, there's different groups like
that, and I have a, a whole list of them in. The link in my bio on Instagram
because I get this at question a lot, so I always direct people there and it's been
pretty cool to see us all grow and heal in different areas and continuing to heal. I
started to date a little bit more and feel more confident and now I have been in a
relationship, a very healthy relationship with the A woman, and we've been
together for about nine months.
[00:14:50] DAN: I feel like healing from Hillsong, stepping away from it,
allowed you to have the capacity to fall in love.
[00:14:55] Noemi: Yeah,
[00:14:56] DAN: Do you feel like this process led you that to that point where
[00:15:00] you can sort of accept love?
[00:15:01] Noemi: It did. I think being at Hillsong did set me back on learning
what a healthy relationship looks like. Um, especially, um, as someone who was
a female assigned at birth, uh, there's like norms women have to follow in order
to live life. By the time Tessa and I met, um, we were able to build a better
connection and I was in a better place of healing, so still going strong, so I'm
really happy.
[00:15:39] DAN: I, I mean, it's, it, it's, it's wonderful. I mean, I, I've. Always
been rooting for you since we first ever met you. Talk about, you know, gender
identity, which is a huge and all encompassing element of someone's life. These
are societal issues that are at the forefront and being given voice these days
[00:16:00] and there's something about the Hillsong story that feels like such a
painful and missed opportunity in that the church could have embraced that. To
say like, look at all these young people that we've attracted into the church and
they're dealing with these things, and instead of accepting that and finding what
I feel like in the teachings of Christ, a very accepting teaching, it seemed like
such an opportunity to be a great beacon of, of growth, a great beacon of
strength without enforcing these arbitrary rules and laws. And that's the saddest
part to me. If there is a God and if there is God working in the hand of Hillsong,
it gave you these young hearts and minds to say, let's do something for them, not
against them.
[00:16:46] Noemi: Yeah, it is a missed opportunity. It felt more welcoming, but
the reality was another, we have to just have a bigger conversation. Can this
system that was created actually be inviting [00:17:00] and inclusive of people
with different gender identity, sexual orientation, women who are more, um,
outspoken and more upfront about living life. Like it can't, it can't stand in that.
And so then it's not a space for, for me, and it's not even a space for Jesus, cuz
he wouldn't be there for sure.
[00:17:22] DAN: You're one of the people that we spoke to in the doc who,
you're very good at charting where you are.. And sort of where you were and
where you wanna be going. I really appreciate you sharing so much with me. I, I
find how you do it inspiring. It grounds me and inspires me and, uh, yeah. I just
want more people to experience that.
[00:17:46] Noemi: And, and I hope you receive this okay. As a white
cisgendered person. Cisgendered man, you use your privilege to help amplify
future voices. Um, and [00:18:00] it has allowed for more and deeper
conversations to happen. Um, so thank you for that. And I don't, if I haven't said
it before.
[00:18:08] DAN: Uh, you kinda wanna make me cry and I really appreciate the
thanks. And I would just always say, Please always keep me in check.
[00:18:19] DAN VO: Since leaving Hillsong, Noemi has manifested the change
and growth in her own life. Rather than departing from Christianity, she's sought
a new and healthy understanding of it, one that accepts, embraces and nurtures
self-healing and service to others. Her journey shows that there is hope after
Hillsong outside of Hillsong. But what about inside Hillsong? After all the
newest disclosures of abuse and misconduct and major departures of leadership
is Hillsong itself making practical steps for institutional growth and healing? I
decided to search for any answers to this question where people are just
beginning their Hillsong journey. Hillsong College. So I took a trip to its new
home. Joining me were former Hillsong College students and my friends. Bailey
Crotchy and Joe Sanders.
[00:19:21] DAN: Where are are we? What? What's happening?
[00:19:24] Bailey: Okay, so we are currently in Irvine, California, which to my
knowledge is a huge hub for businesses. It really gives me nostalgia because the
Hillsong College campus in Australia was very similar.
[00:19:44] Joe: Looks exactly like the Hills Campus.
[00:19:46] Bailey: Our college was smack dab in the middle of just a bunch of
corporate business buildings. So it's good to know they're sticking with what
they know.
[00:19:57] DAN: Yeah, there's lots of. [00:20:00] stores and faceless office
buildings and apartment complexes, and it is not, uh, not quite the holy
landscape I was expecting. Yeah. Did you see the, um, did you see the. The
Instagram post about the new campus moving from Arizona to California?
[00:20:19] Joe: No,
[00:20:20] DAN: It was all lights and glamor as you can imagine from someone
that lives in California, I can tell you that those images of where the church is
gonna be are not where the church is gonna be. That was Santa Monica and
Venice.
[00:20:31] Bailey: The, it's a classic Hillsong tactic they did, uh, for Sydney as
well. I think the fact that they've chosen to move to California is a very strategic
plan for them because a huge part of, I guess, enticing kids to go to Hillsong
College in Sydney was because it was in Australia and because they showed all
of those [00:21:00] cool stock images and the Sydney Harbor Bridge and the
Opera House and you know, long boarding in the Blue Mountains, intercut, um,
with all of like,
[00:21:12] Joe: Worship,
[00:21:12] Bailey: the hype worship moments, and it really made it a place that
you wanted to be.
[00:21:21] DAN: So you are saying the promo images versus real life images do
match.
[00:21:28] Bailey: Absolutely. When you get there, you realize. Oh, I'm actually
stuck in the middle of the suburbs and I had no idea
[00:21:37] Joe: that college is gonna take up 24 7 of my time and that I'm
actually not going to really experience much of Australia in Sydney.
[00:21:46] Joe: Definitely where they're shooting college commercials is not
where you're having college classes.
[00:21:50] Bailey: Right.
[00:21:52] DAN: Did you get a sense of Isolation?
[00:21:54] Bailey: Oh, definitely. Um, as somebody who moves to a foreign
[00:22:00] country, you don't really know how to work, public transport. You
can't afford a car. It is very isolating. You are just stuck. You're like, Well, I
guess I'm just gonna stay around college.
[00:22:12] DAN: Well, I guess sort of like counter anyone's even if you did
know the buses and the trains, you're saying it was still difficult to to get
anywhere based on your schedule, based on the school demands.
[00:22:24] Bailey: Absolutely.
[00:22:24] DAN: Based on any money.
[00:22:25] Bailey: Absolutely. I mean, my classes were from. 8:15 AM to 4:45
PM and that also made it extremely hard to find a job because all your time and
efforts were being poured into the church and not to mention serving. There
wasn't a day that I wasn't serving, it just occupied every ounce of my time. They
just kind of constructed your schedule in a way where it was not really plausible
to have a stable income [00:23:00] and also be in the church. And so I think it
was strategic because then they would offer us jobs and they would dangle job
opportunities in front of our faces because we needed jobs and we couldn't
necessarily get jobs outside of work.
[00:23:16] DAN: Right.
[00:23:18] DAN VO: After driving through Irvine, California, the eventual
permanent campus for Hillsong College, we drove to San Juan Capistrano
where the college is temporarily located, and school was now in session.
[00:23:31] DAN: There so right up there on the left, you can see there's a
Hillsong College banner
[00:23:36] Bailey: Oh, oh my. Yep. There it is.
[00:23:39] DAN: Yep.
[00:23:42] Bailey: That's crazy.
[00:23:46] DAN: Some, uh,
[00:23:48] Bailey: students,
[00:23:48] DAN: some people with some Arizona plates behind us that would
8, 9, 10, 10 cars. Four of them have Arizona license plates..
[00:23:54] Bailey: We're in the right place.
[00:23:55] Joe: I have a strong feeling that's a guest driver's car. Certainly looks
like one of [00:24:00] the vehicles that Brian would like to be in.
[00:24:04] DAN VO: Guest drivers was one of Hillsong's volunteer programs
that Joe was a part of during his time at Hillsong College. As a guest driver,
your duty is to shuttle Hillsong leadership and special guests from point A to
point B, like free Uber drivers. But as Joe and others have described, it was a
space where many of Hillsong's issues resonated, and the line between
volunteerism and exploitation was crossed. Demanding hours, overbearing
rules, and the expectation that drivers treat their passengers, not as fellow
Christians, but VIPs. The vehicle Joe pointed out was a large blacked out SUV
sitting in the parking lot.
[00:24:45] Bailey: Oh my gosh. I have like butterflies in my stomach.
[00:24:49] Joe: So weird.
[00:24:50] DAN: Yeah tell me about it. How does it feel?
[00:24:52] Bailey: Oh, like a very nerve wracking feeling. I didn't think I would
feel that way, but it's just being back in that [00:25:00] atmosphere. I have not
been in for such a long time.
[00:25:04] DAN: You wanna just walk in?
[00:25:05] Bailey: Yeah, let's do it..
[00:25:08] DAN VO: We wanted to get information to find out what changes, if
any, were being implemented at Hillsong College. So we decided to go in
separately to give us the best opportunity to start a conversation.
[00:25:20] DAN: Okay, I'm gonna go first and just check it out.
[00:25:22] Joe: You're, you're gonna go?
[00:25:23] DAN: And then, uh, and then I'll leave you guys to it. Cause if they
think I'm with you and around you, then they're gonna get real strange.
[00:25:29] Bailey: Yeah, yeah, yeah,
[00:25:30] Joe: yeah.
[00:25:30] DAN: All right. Let me just walk. I'm just gonna do a little roll by.
So I am walking up to the college temporary campus. Just gonna go and have a
little peek, see what they say. Well, the door's open.
[00:25:51] DAN VO: Going inside was more nerve wracking than I expected. I
wondered what everyone inside thought about the documentary, if they even
watched it, how they were [00:26:00] processing everything that's come to light,
and if they even believed it. I wondered how they'd react if they knew I was part
of exposing it. I had a strange anxiety that upon entering, all eyes would be
focused on me, like they'd recognize me as an outsider, an enemy, but no one
even seemed to notice I was there. Everyone was busy. Focused on another day
executing Hillsong's vision.
[00:26:23] DAN: So we just walked in. There is uh, nice little coffee shop.
Inside there is a big screen. With big Hillsong Insignia, um, Auditorium, Kids
Club, it's all very compact altogether. Um, looks like, looks like an Apple store.
Um, but for Jesus.
[00:26:45] DAN VO: After I had a look around, Bailey and Joe went in together
and I waited.
[00:26:51] DAN: So I am sitting in the car in the parking lot as Joe and bailey
are walking into the Hillsong [00:27:00] College campus, the temporary
campus, and so I'm kind of hiding behind a tree, just trying not to make myself
too noticeable.
[00:27:08] DAN VO: The minutes kept passing and Joe and Bailey remained
inside. There wasn't much room to loiter or explore, so I knew they had to be
speaking with someone, and as they were inside, people began filtering out.
[00:27:20] DAN: So a bunch of teenagers, young adults, just came out of the
building, got in their cars and are driving off, who's an older person. Looks like
a pastor. Definitely a pastor. They're walking towards me. His dressed in all
black and white sneakers. He has glasses. Probably looks around 40. He just got
into the big Chevy Tahoe that's all blacked out, that Joe said looks like one of
the cars that he would have to drive when he was on the driving team. They are
pulling back out and outta the parking lot right now. It looked like. He was a
VIP. Five of them got into the car. Um, the pastor got into [00:28:00] the
passenger side back door. He was certainly the more senior of everybody. He
was kind of leading the flocks, and now there are only three cars. It's also just
about to be 50 minutes, five zero minutes since Joe and Bailey went inside.
[00:28:18] DAN VO: Almost an hour had passed when Joe and Bailey finally
returned and I was burning with curiosity.
[00:28:25] DAN: They're here. I see them. What's happening? How was it
[00:28:29] Bailey: actually kind of emotional? ,
[00:28:31] DAN: do you wanna talk about it? Do you wanna wait?
[00:28:34] Bailey: Definitely.
[00:28:34] DAN VO: Joe and Bailey actually ran into somebody they knew and
got to sit down and talk with them. For the sake of privacy, we've redacted their
name from the following conversation.
[00:28:44] DAN: Go from the beginning, like, tell me what, Tell me. Went
down.
[00:28:46] Joe: Well, we come in and I, we see a lady sitting down and I say,
Hey is already here. I used to live with him and she's like, I don't know. You
should ask, and which I. Uh, because we served on guest drivers together and
went to college together. [00:29:00] Uh, and so then we talked. Who is now a
staff member for Hillsong College.
[00:29:07] Bailey: He's doing administrative stuff.
[00:29:09] Joe: Yeah. So that's kind of where we just sat down with him and
talked with him for an hour inside the chapel. Like he knew Bailey was in the
documentary. So
[00:29:18] Bailey: yeah, he was very open into hearing everything that we had
to say and our constructive thoughts church. Um, but it was also great hear. All
the changes that were being made internally to be better, which was what he
really trying to, I hammer down. They've kind of restarted from the inside out
and, uh, all of the high up pastors things and treating the college as a workforce.
It's been completely gutted apparently. From...
[00:29:56] DAN: I did see one of the pastors come out and get into that car that
you were saying and get driven [00:30:00] away.
[00:30:01] Bailey: no way.
[00:30:02] DAN: A hundred percent. He was like a taller chap probably around
my age. He had, uh, dark glasses on. He was definitely a more senior person in
that group and they all walked out together and then he got put in that car and
they drove off. Yeah.
[00:30:17] Joe: Like opened door and everything?
[00:30:19] DAN: Uh, they opened the door. Yep.
[00:30:21] Joe: literally told me that like guest driver's culture gone, but that is
guest drivers to a T. Cuz I was like, this was a team I was very much a part of
and I know that I maybe caused some damages as well by leading other students
to be in this team, but I see now everything that's wrong with it. And he's like,
No, that's completely gone. Like that's not who we are. Like yeah, we still
respect people who work hard for us, but it's not that type of environment
anymore. If I can still spot a guest driver's car in the parking lot, and you're still
having some college student come out and open your door, literally walking out
of class to come get your door, that culture's not gone.
[00:30:58] DAN: Everyone went to their car, like, and they [00:31:00] looked
like college cars, like people were carpooling. But then this older gentleman,
Yeah, he, he just, he's, he was all black, white sneakers, um, very put together. It
was a giant car. It's a Chevy Tahoe what have, what have you, and it was all
blacked out. And uh,
[00:31:16] Joe: that
[00:31:16] DAN: they walked directly from the church to the car left.
[00:31:20] Bailey: man
[00:31:26] Joe: It's yeah, that was like thing that I genuinely asked, I feel like
was, is drivers gone? Yeah, but then it's happening while we're talking to him?
[00:31:37] Bailey: said that drivers is gone, he told us that all the stickers, the
reserved seat stickers are being removed, so there's no reserved seating
anymore. Phil Dooley doesn't have security guards. He like stays on the floor.
As people are coming to church and, um, greets people up until the time
[00:32:00] that he has to preach, uh, he said that like the makeup room and the
makeup team and all of that, you know, weren't a thing. I don't know. Now I'm
kind of suss.
[00:32:13] DAN: Yeah, I mean, what I've noticed on. The narrative of Hillsong
is that everything has changed. Everything's changed. We've got rid of
everything. We're doing all this, we're clearing house. But I just don't know how
you can wholesale change that. I mean, I, I sincerely hope they are changing.
Um, but I dunno if that change is because of contrition.
[00:32:31] Bailey: right
[00:32:32] DAN: Um, or if that change is from contraction in that they just
don't have the people in the popularity to do it anymore.
[00:32:39] Bailey: I do feel like one thing that really hammered home was like,
this is not the cool place to be anymore. You know, there's no celebrities, there's
no status. It's just, it's not, I'm not here because it's the cool thing to do anymore.
I'm here because [00:33:00] I wanna see this through and I wanna make the
church better. And I respected that, but at the same time, my biggest question
and concern, how are the college students being treated? And um, he was very
apologetic and he seemed incredibly genuine, and I don't know if I'm the fool
for believing him or it's just so hard to, I don't know.
[00:33:27] Joe: I don't know what to believe anymore. The fact that the pastor's
still getting his door opened, it's like celebrity culture is gone, but still being
literally treated like a celebrity. It's like, you know, nobody walks out and gets
your door. Gets my door. Like it, Not that it's an entitled thing, but just saying
like that's not a normal people thing. Like that is something that happens for
somebody who is higher up. So it's just frustrating hearing for an hour we're
changed, everything's gone, and then boom, Dan witnesses it still happen. And
we even called it out before we even went in. Oh, that's probably a driver's
vehicle, .[00:34:00]
[00:34:00] DAN: Yeah, it is. It's kinda interesting. And to be fair, I need to, I
need to double check that that was a pastor. I mean, It was certainly a more
senior person. I mean, everybody was, he was older than everybody.
[00:34:16] DAN VO: I did double check this, and the man I saw was Lee
Burns, executive vice president of Hillsong College. To be fair, what I witnessed
might not have been an active Hillsong's guest driver's program. And I don't
wanna suggest it's problematic for a young adult to show an elder a polite
courtesy by opening their car door. But as we've seen time and time again with
Hillsong, the line between honoring your leaders and being exploited by them is
thin. And if what I witnessed was a continuation of the driver's program just
without the name, it makes me wonder. Is it all just Hillsong rebranding? Is
Hillsong capable of true change like Pastor Christ and others are calling for?
Like [00:35:00] Noemi has found for herself, real institutional change comes
from the top down. So I decided to look into the decision makers at Hillsong,
the designers of Hillsong's renovation, the global board.
[00:35:16] DAN: In your text, you said that you had a meeting with...
[00:35:19] Delali: Oh
[00:35:19] DAN: someone, an unnamed, uh, board member, and they, yeah
agreed to speak to you.
[00:35:29] Delali: Yeah, they're actively trying to steer the ship somewhere and,
um, in my opinion, it's a sinking ship.