Hillsong: A Megachurch Shattered

Ep.4: Let There Be Light

Episode Summary

Dan connects with former Hillsong Boston volunteer, Noemi Uribe, who shares her personal pursuit of healing, change, and identity outside of Hillsong.

Episode Notes

Dan connects with former Hillsong Boston volunteer, Noemi Uribe, who shares her personal pursuit of healing, change, and identity outside of Hillsong. Dan’s journey then takes him to the controversial Hillsong College, which was recently forced to relocate its campus from Phoenix, Arizona to Orange County, California. Joined by former Hillsong College students Bailey Krawczyk and Joe Sanders, Dan makes a discovery that suggests Hillsong’s own pronouncement of systemic change may be a facade.

Watch Hillsong: A Megachurch Exposed on discovery+. Go to discoveryplus.com/hillsong to start your 7-day free trial today. Terms apply.

Find episode transcripts here: https://hillsong-a-megachurch-shattered.simplecast.com/episodes/ep4-let-there-be-light

Episode Transcription

[00:00:00] DAN VO: This episode may contain explicit language and themes

such as sexual assault and violence. Listener discretion is advised.

[00:00:07] Noemi: My dad was a pastor and a preacher, and so whenever we

were invited to places, I had to put on this mask of I'm the perfect child of this

person. So I learned really quickly how to do that, how to not be me in any

setting.

[00:00:24] DAN VO: I'm Dan Johnstone, and this is Hillsong: A Megachurch

Shattered from Discovery plus. In 2016, Terry Christ, lead pastor of City of

Grace Church in Phoenix, Arizona made an announcement that was meant to

usher in a new and exciting era for his church.

[00:00:52] Terry Crist: Today we become Hillsong Church Phoenix. I feel

stronger [00:01:00] about this than anything God has ever said to me. We are

stepping into the future with the clearest word that God has spoken to me in my

life.

[00:01:14] DAN VO: With this move, Hillsong was acquiring a megachurch of

its own. The City of Grace had three church campuses serving the Phoenix area,

Mesa, Scottsdale, and downtown Phoenix with thousands of congregants. After

six years of rapidly growing notoriety in New York City, Hillsong would now

have an established presence in the Western US with plans to spread into

California and beyond.

[00:01:38] DAN VO: In the following years under the Hillsong banner, the

church spread, launching campuses in Tucson and Las Vegas. But most

importantly, the new minted Hillsong Phoenix provided the infrastructure for

something critical to Hillsong's growth and expansion in the US. An American

college. Hillsong had a successful college in Sydney, which [00:02:00] steadily

produced congregants, volunteers, givers, and future pastoral superstars like

Carl Lentz and now in Phoenix, Hillsong had a new incubator on American soil.

But in the wake of Hillsong's unraveling, in the spring of 2022, Terry made

another announcement that would, again, reshape the future of his church and

Hillsong.

 

[00:02:22] Terry Crist: It has become clear that we cannot continue in our

global family as much as we love it, and so we have chosen this week to

withdraw from being Hillsong Church. First, why are we taking this action?

Over the past year, following the sin that was exposed at Hillsong Church, New

York City, and the subsequent investigation that was conducted into sexual

misconduct and into financial misappropriation, I encouraged the results of that

report to be made in some general form.

[00:02:57] Terry Crist: I understand the sensitivity of that. I asked [00:03:00]

that the report be redacted so names could be protected. I asked that the report

be synopsized so that we could embrace accountability and transparency. And

for whatever reason, that request was denied. As information began to leak out

as to what was in the report, and as the global board made the decision to

increase financial controls within the churches, lead pastors were suddenly

asked to sign NDAs and non-competes, meaning that if we were removed from

our positions, we could not plant churches again within our community for at

least one year. Last Saturday, after months of trying to gain approval to re-seat

our local board, we formally requested the release of our church back to us. We

wanted to continue by returning governance and accountability, but even

continuing with the banner Hillsong Phoenix for many reasons, [00:04:00]

including our love, our deep love for Hillsong College.

[00:04:05] Terry Crist: Sadly, the board refused our request and I was told this

past week, it is quote, all or nothing close quote. We either had to allow the

global board to govern our church and to own our properties, or we had to leave.

And so with great sadness, I chose to leave.

[00:04:28] DAN VO: Pastor Christ wouldn't subdue to Hillsong Global's strong

arming, but he went further than that, delivering a passionate plea, a loud and

clear call for reform of the evangelical corporate culture where misconduct

seems to thrive and secrets run deep.

[00:04:46] Terry Crist: I love the global church and will continue to. But I also

believe it is in the best interest of Hillsong Church to conduct an internal

investigation as it relates to board conduct, to [00:05:00] immediately restore

the Sydney Eldership, to make the findings of that public and to dismiss the

board members who have protected the institution and not the people. And

when secular corporations are more transparent than the church, and when

secular boards hold their employees and directors to a higher standard of

accountability, we have failed the injunction. That judgment must begin at the

house of God, so that the people of God stand as a prophetic kingdom witness to

the nations of the earth. It is vital that we get it right..

 

[00:05:41] DAN VO: Pastor Christ then went on to say the exact words that

Hillsong should have said long ago. Words that thousands of victims hurt by

Hillsong have been hoping to hear for years.

[00:05:51] Terry Crist: I also wanna offer a couple of other important

statements. Our hearts are broken for anyone who has been victimized

[00:06:00] by anyone, anywhere, for any reason in Hillsong church or college.

Let's build a church that values people in every way. Let's build a culture where

truth can be told without fear of repercussion, without NDAs and non-competes

and covering things that should be transparently reported on. Let's build a

culture of honor without idolatry. Let's build a culture where victims are seen

and are heard, and are validated and are healed. Let's build a culture, a pastoral

servanthood, and not corporate leadership. Let's build a culture that values

righteousness. And justice, and let's build a church that looks like heaven, not

the systems of this world.

[00:06:59] DAN VO: On the heels of [00:07:00] Brian Houston's departure,

Pastor Christ's announcement shocked the Hillsong community. It was sudden,

sharp and sure. And it felt like he was unsure if Hillsong Global was committed

to the deep change required to heal the roots of the church. So he was taking

change into his own hands. And losing the Phoenix campuses was a huge blow

to the Hillsong Global network. They lost five church campuses and the home

of their prized American college, but the college didn't close. It relocated from

Phoenix to Southern California. I ended up visiting the new College,

[00:07:35] Bailey: There it is.

[00:07:36] DAN: You wanna just walk in?

[00:07:37] Bailey: Yah let's do it.

[00:07:38] DAN VO: Which we'll get into later in the episode, but first I wanted

to catch up with Noemi Uribe, who shared part of her story in the documentary.

The story of Pastor Crist and Hillsong Phoenix reminded me of Noemi, a

volunteer at Hillsong Boston. Noemi's treatment was so bad it left her

completely broken, but since she's left the church, [00:08:00] Noemi, like Pastor

Crist, has taken a proactive and practical approach to change. So I caught up

with her to find out how she is healing from the scars left by her experience at

Hillsong.

[00:08:14] Noemi: Hello!

 

[00:08:15] DAN: Hi! Since you were last in the dock, like gave me the

rundown, what's been happening?

[00:08:21] Noemi: What has been happening? So at the time I was still

processing a lot, trying to heal, continuing therapy. I had accepted a lot of toxic

behavior because of what I was used to at Hillsong.

[00:08:38] DAN: Do you think you were not yourself when you were at

Hillsong?

[00:08:43] Noemi: Oh no, not at all. Growing up, I, my dad was a pastor and a

preacher, and so whenever we were invited to places, I had to put on this mask

of I'm the perfect child of this person. I am a representation of them. [00:09:00]

So I learned really quickly how to do that, how to not be me in any setting. And

that also included like my gender identity and my sexual orientation.

[00:09:12] Noemi: So when I got to. Hillsong, I, I realized that I put on that

mask again, and I had to also present this very perfect person that had their shit

together, that wasn't going through a mental health crisis, that wasn't having

anxiety attacks every single Sunday. So, no, I, I was not myself at all. Um, and

when I left in December of 2019, I still went back in February and I still kept in

contact with people because it felt safer to go back to the, the abuse than to

actually rebuild and heal. It felt more comfortable in my brain.

[00:09:59] DAN: [00:10:00] Even despite the pain, despite the, mental

consternation and things. It is still comfortable. You know, you left and then you

went back.

[00:10:09] Noemi: When you're in a place like Hillsong, it could kind of

become an addiction. Like what you get out of it is usually like the community,

the friends, the adrenaline of like being there for hours like that can become

addicting. And honestly, the pandemic really, really did help me cut it off

because they weren't in person. Um, and that's where a lot of my deconstruction

and my separation and the addiction started to end. And that's where, um, a few

months later, in 2020, I went into the psychiatric hospital again, um, to continue

to heal and like reset. Um, because it was a lot of realizations that were hitting.

There was a lot of trial and error. There was a lot of [00:11:00] reflection. A lot

of healing. I didn't go to church for a long time. Um, I didn't wanna talk to faith

leaders because that was like really triggering to me. So to have gone through

that, allowing me the space to have that grievance away from those, those

people , um, and, and going to therapy and like really working. Um, and having

 

a therapist who is actually trauma informed, cuz some therapists may not have

that and so it may be a little bit more difficult.

[00:11:31] DAN: There is one thing I did wanna ask about because I, we

touched on it and I can remember being on the off ramp of the 101 when you

mentioned it. Um, , I don't why, I can't remember exactly where I was when we

were talking about it, but it was something that really struck me, um, in. The

world of trauma therapy, religious trauma therapy is in a very nascent, like

brand new stage. And something that you brought to my attention so pointedly,

is that [00:12:00] you wanted to speak to somebody that not necessarily looked

like you, but it had experienced the world in, in a similar way to you that you

could relate to. And you were saying like, that's so hard to find because the

journey to get to a therapist level, costs so much money and privilege and time

that the pool of, of, of people that you wanted to talk to was smaller.

[00:12:21] Noemi: Yeah, religious trauma is a new, a new way of thinking, a

new way of looking at people who've experienced religious abuse, um, and

spiritual abuse. And it is difficult to find a provider or to find someone who's

qualified to support you. When I did my search and like I broke it down to what

I was looking.

[00:12:43] Noemi: Someone who was a trauma informed, who was Latinx, um,

who was also queer, um, and who was okay with talking about religion, I had

two options. The first one said no, and I was lucky that the second one said yes.

And we've [00:13:00] been, We've been together, I've been seeing him for about

four years now. And the work continues. Like the work doesn't stop within me.

Um, and I'm gonna keep going. But for other folks who don't have the ability to

do that, um, there are resources that I have found online. Um, on social media

like Reclamation Collective. Uh, they've been doing amazing work, um, through

support groups, um, to help people process religious trauma.

[00:13:36] Noemi: Um, I was fortunate to be a part of the, the Hillsong support

group virtually, uh, and it has helped me so much to reflect in different ways to

work on my, uh, victimization, like accepting the abuse and, and like

recognizing that it wasn't my fault. And that it's been really nice to have that in a

support group and to talk to other people who've had similar experience,

[00:14:00] uh, within a religious context and, and more specifically within

Hillsong.

[00:14:04] Noemi: Um, and there's other organizations that provide more

specifically to, um, LGBTQ youth who have had religious trauma, uh, because

of their gender identity or sexual orientation. Um, there's different groups like

 

that, and I have a, a whole list of them in. The link in my bio on Instagram

because I get this at question a lot, so I always direct people there and it's been

pretty cool to see us all grow and heal in different areas and continuing to heal. I

started to date a little bit more and feel more confident and now I have been in a

relationship, a very healthy relationship with the A woman, and we've been

together for about nine months.

[00:14:50] DAN: I feel like healing from Hillsong, stepping away from it,

allowed you to have the capacity to fall in love.

[00:14:55] Noemi: Yeah,

[00:14:56] DAN: Do you feel like this process led you that to that point where

[00:15:00] you can sort of accept love?

[00:15:01] Noemi: It did. I think being at Hillsong did set me back on learning

what a healthy relationship looks like. Um, especially, um, as someone who was

a female assigned at birth, uh, there's like norms women have to follow in order

to live life. By the time Tessa and I met, um, we were able to build a better

connection and I was in a better place of healing, so still going strong, so I'm

really happy.

[00:15:39] DAN: I, I mean, it's, it, it's, it's wonderful. I mean, I, I've. Always

been rooting for you since we first ever met you. Talk about, you know, gender

identity, which is a huge and all encompassing element of someone's life. These

are societal issues that are at the forefront and being given voice these days

[00:16:00] and there's something about the Hillsong story that feels like such a

painful and missed opportunity in that the church could have embraced that. To

say like, look at all these young people that we've attracted into the church and

they're dealing with these things, and instead of accepting that and finding what

I feel like in the teachings of Christ, a very accepting teaching, it seemed like

such an opportunity to be a great beacon of, of growth, a great beacon of

strength without enforcing these arbitrary rules and laws. And that's the saddest

part to me. If there is a God and if there is God working in the hand of Hillsong,

it gave you these young hearts and minds to say, let's do something for them, not

against them.

[00:16:46] Noemi: Yeah, it is a missed opportunity. It felt more welcoming, but

the reality was another, we have to just have a bigger conversation. Can this

system that was created actually be inviting [00:17:00] and inclusive of people

with different gender identity, sexual orientation, women who are more, um,

outspoken and more upfront about living life. Like it can't, it can't stand in that.

 

And so then it's not a space for, for me, and it's not even a space for Jesus, cuz

he wouldn't be there for sure.

[00:17:22] DAN: You're one of the people that we spoke to in the doc who,

you're very good at charting where you are.. And sort of where you were and

where you wanna be going. I really appreciate you sharing so much with me. I, I

find how you do it inspiring. It grounds me and inspires me and, uh, yeah. I just

want more people to experience that.

[00:17:46] Noemi: And, and I hope you receive this okay. As a white

cisgendered person. Cisgendered man, you use your privilege to help amplify

future voices. Um, and [00:18:00] it has allowed for more and deeper

conversations to happen. Um, so thank you for that. And I don't, if I haven't said

it before.

[00:18:08] DAN: Uh, you kinda wanna make me cry and I really appreciate the

thanks. And I would just always say, Please always keep me in check.

[00:18:19] DAN VO: Since leaving Hillsong, Noemi has manifested the change

and growth in her own life. Rather than departing from Christianity, she's sought

a new and healthy understanding of it, one that accepts, embraces and nurtures

self-healing and service to others. Her journey shows that there is hope after

Hillsong outside of Hillsong. But what about inside Hillsong? After all the

newest disclosures of abuse and misconduct and major departures of leadership

is Hillsong itself making practical steps for institutional growth and healing? I

decided to search for any answers to this question where people are just

beginning their Hillsong journey. Hillsong College. So I took a trip to its new

home. Joining me were former Hillsong College students and my friends. Bailey

Crotchy and Joe Sanders.

[00:19:21] DAN: Where are are we? What? What's happening?

[00:19:24] Bailey: Okay, so we are currently in Irvine, California, which to my

knowledge is a huge hub for businesses. It really gives me nostalgia because the

Hillsong College campus in Australia was very similar.

[00:19:44] Joe: Looks exactly like the Hills Campus.

[00:19:46] Bailey: Our college was smack dab in the middle of just a bunch of

corporate business buildings. So it's good to know they're sticking with what

they know.

 

[00:19:57] DAN: Yeah, there's lots of. [00:20:00] stores and faceless office

buildings and apartment complexes, and it is not, uh, not quite the holy

landscape I was expecting. Yeah. Did you see the, um, did you see the. The

Instagram post about the new campus moving from Arizona to California?

[00:20:19] Joe: No,

[00:20:20] DAN: It was all lights and glamor as you can imagine from someone

that lives in California, I can tell you that those images of where the church is

gonna be are not where the church is gonna be. That was Santa Monica and

Venice.

[00:20:31] Bailey: The, it's a classic Hillsong tactic they did, uh, for Sydney as

well. I think the fact that they've chosen to move to California is a very strategic

plan for them because a huge part of, I guess, enticing kids to go to Hillsong

College in Sydney was because it was in Australia and because they showed all

of those [00:21:00] cool stock images and the Sydney Harbor Bridge and the

Opera House and you know, long boarding in the Blue Mountains, intercut, um,

with all of like,

[00:21:12] Joe: Worship,

[00:21:12] Bailey: the hype worship moments, and it really made it a place that

you wanted to be.

[00:21:21] DAN: So you are saying the promo images versus real life images do

match.

[00:21:28] Bailey: Absolutely. When you get there, you realize. Oh, I'm actually

stuck in the middle of the suburbs and I had no idea

[00:21:37] Joe: that college is gonna take up 24 7 of my time and that I'm

actually not going to really experience much of Australia in Sydney.

[00:21:46] Joe: Definitely where they're shooting college commercials is not

where you're having college classes.

[00:21:50] Bailey: Right.

[00:21:52] DAN: Did you get a sense of Isolation?

 

[00:21:54] Bailey: Oh, definitely. Um, as somebody who moves to a foreign

[00:22:00] country, you don't really know how to work, public transport. You

can't afford a car. It is very isolating. You are just stuck. You're like, Well, I

guess I'm just gonna stay around college.

[00:22:12] DAN: Well, I guess sort of like counter anyone's even if you did

know the buses and the trains, you're saying it was still difficult to to get

anywhere based on your schedule, based on the school demands.

[00:22:24] Bailey: Absolutely.

[00:22:24] DAN: Based on any money.

[00:22:25] Bailey: Absolutely. I mean, my classes were from. 8:15 AM to 4:45

PM and that also made it extremely hard to find a job because all your time and

efforts were being poured into the church and not to mention serving. There

wasn't a day that I wasn't serving, it just occupied every ounce of my time. They

just kind of constructed your schedule in a way where it was not really plausible

to have a stable income [00:23:00] and also be in the church. And so I think it

was strategic because then they would offer us jobs and they would dangle job

opportunities in front of our faces because we needed jobs and we couldn't

necessarily get jobs outside of work.

[00:23:16] DAN: Right.

[00:23:18] DAN VO: After driving through Irvine, California, the eventual

permanent campus for Hillsong College, we drove to San Juan Capistrano

where the college is temporarily located, and school was now in session.

[00:23:31] DAN: There so right up there on the left, you can see there's a

Hillsong College banner

[00:23:36] Bailey: Oh, oh my. Yep. There it is.

[00:23:39] DAN: Yep.

[00:23:42] Bailey: That's crazy.

[00:23:46] DAN: Some, uh,

[00:23:48] Bailey: students,

 

[00:23:48] DAN: some people with some Arizona plates behind us that would

8, 9, 10, 10 cars. Four of them have Arizona license plates..

[00:23:54] Bailey: We're in the right place.

[00:23:55] Joe: I have a strong feeling that's a guest driver's car. Certainly looks

like one of [00:24:00] the vehicles that Brian would like to be in.

[00:24:04] DAN VO: Guest drivers was one of Hillsong's volunteer programs

that Joe was a part of during his time at Hillsong College. As a guest driver,

your duty is to shuttle Hillsong leadership and special guests from point A to

point B, like free Uber drivers. But as Joe and others have described, it was a

space where many of Hillsong's issues resonated, and the line between

volunteerism and exploitation was crossed. Demanding hours, overbearing

rules, and the expectation that drivers treat their passengers, not as fellow

Christians, but VIPs. The vehicle Joe pointed out was a large blacked out SUV

sitting in the parking lot.

[00:24:45] Bailey: Oh my gosh. I have like butterflies in my stomach.

[00:24:49] Joe: So weird.

[00:24:50] DAN: Yeah tell me about it. How does it feel?

[00:24:52] Bailey: Oh, like a very nerve wracking feeling. I didn't think I would

feel that way, but it's just being back in that [00:25:00] atmosphere. I have not

been in for such a long time.

[00:25:04] DAN: You wanna just walk in?

[00:25:05] Bailey: Yeah, let's do it..

[00:25:08] DAN VO: We wanted to get information to find out what changes, if

any, were being implemented at Hillsong College. So we decided to go in

separately to give us the best opportunity to start a conversation.

[00:25:20] DAN: Okay, I'm gonna go first and just check it out.

[00:25:22] Joe: You're, you're gonna go?

 

[00:25:23] DAN: And then, uh, and then I'll leave you guys to it. Cause if they

think I'm with you and around you, then they're gonna get real strange.

[00:25:29] Bailey: Yeah, yeah, yeah,

[00:25:30] Joe: yeah.

[00:25:30] DAN: All right. Let me just walk. I'm just gonna do a little roll by.

So I am walking up to the college temporary campus. Just gonna go and have a

little peek, see what they say. Well, the door's open.

[00:25:51] DAN VO: Going inside was more nerve wracking than I expected. I

wondered what everyone inside thought about the documentary, if they even

watched it, how they were [00:26:00] processing everything that's come to light,

and if they even believed it. I wondered how they'd react if they knew I was part

of exposing it. I had a strange anxiety that upon entering, all eyes would be

focused on me, like they'd recognize me as an outsider, an enemy, but no one

even seemed to notice I was there. Everyone was busy. Focused on another day

executing Hillsong's vision.

[00:26:23] DAN: So we just walked in. There is uh, nice little coffee shop.

Inside there is a big screen. With big Hillsong Insignia, um, Auditorium, Kids

Club, it's all very compact altogether. Um, looks like, looks like an Apple store.

Um, but for Jesus.

[00:26:45] DAN VO: After I had a look around, Bailey and Joe went in together

and I waited.

[00:26:51] DAN: So I am sitting in the car in the parking lot as Joe and bailey

are walking into the Hillsong [00:27:00] College campus, the temporary

campus, and so I'm kind of hiding behind a tree, just trying not to make myself

too noticeable.

[00:27:08] DAN VO: The minutes kept passing and Joe and Bailey remained

inside. There wasn't much room to loiter or explore, so I knew they had to be

speaking with someone, and as they were inside, people began filtering out.

[00:27:20] DAN: So a bunch of teenagers, young adults, just came out of the

building, got in their cars and are driving off, who's an older person. Looks like

a pastor. Definitely a pastor. They're walking towards me. His dressed in all

black and white sneakers. He has glasses. Probably looks around 40. He just got

into the big Chevy Tahoe that's all blacked out, that Joe said looks like one of

 

the cars that he would have to drive when he was on the driving team. They are

pulling back out and outta the parking lot right now. It looked like. He was a

VIP. Five of them got into the car. Um, the pastor got into [00:28:00] the

passenger side back door. He was certainly the more senior of everybody. He

was kind of leading the flocks, and now there are only three cars. It's also just

about to be 50 minutes, five zero minutes since Joe and Bailey went inside.

[00:28:18] DAN VO: Almost an hour had passed when Joe and Bailey finally

returned and I was burning with curiosity.

[00:28:25] DAN: They're here. I see them. What's happening? How was it

[00:28:29] Bailey: actually kind of emotional? ,

[00:28:31] DAN: do you wanna talk about it? Do you wanna wait?

[00:28:34] Bailey: Definitely.

[00:28:34] DAN VO: Joe and Bailey actually ran into somebody they knew and

got to sit down and talk with them. For the sake of privacy, we've redacted their

name from the following conversation.

[00:28:44] DAN: Go from the beginning, like, tell me what, Tell me. Went

down.

[00:28:46] Joe: Well, we come in and I, we see a lady sitting down and I say,

Hey is already here. I used to live with him and she's like, I don't know. You

should ask, and which I. Uh, because we served on guest drivers together and

went to college together. [00:29:00] Uh, and so then we talked. Who is now a

staff member for Hillsong College.

[00:29:07] Bailey: He's doing administrative stuff.

[00:29:09] Joe: Yeah. So that's kind of where we just sat down with him and

talked with him for an hour inside the chapel. Like he knew Bailey was in the

documentary. So

[00:29:18] Bailey: yeah, he was very open into hearing everything that we had

to say and our constructive thoughts church. Um, but it was also great hear. All

the changes that were being made internally to be better, which was what he

really trying to, I hammer down. They've kind of restarted from the inside out

 

and, uh, all of the high up pastors things and treating the college as a workforce.

It's been completely gutted apparently. From...

[00:29:56] DAN: I did see one of the pastors come out and get into that car that

you were saying and get driven [00:30:00] away.

[00:30:01] Bailey: no way.

[00:30:02] DAN: A hundred percent. He was like a taller chap probably around

my age. He had, uh, dark glasses on. He was definitely a more senior person in

that group and they all walked out together and then he got put in that car and

they drove off. Yeah.

[00:30:17] Joe: Like opened door and everything?

[00:30:19] DAN: Uh, they opened the door. Yep.

[00:30:21] Joe: literally told me that like guest driver's culture gone, but that is

guest drivers to a T. Cuz I was like, this was a team I was very much a part of

and I know that I maybe caused some damages as well by leading other students

to be in this team, but I see now everything that's wrong with it. And he's like,

No, that's completely gone. Like that's not who we are. Like yeah, we still

respect people who work hard for us, but it's not that type of environment

anymore. If I can still spot a guest driver's car in the parking lot, and you're still

having some college student come out and open your door, literally walking out

of class to come get your door, that culture's not gone.

[00:30:58] DAN: Everyone went to their car, like, and they [00:31:00] looked

like college cars, like people were carpooling. But then this older gentleman,

Yeah, he, he just, he's, he was all black, white sneakers, um, very put together. It

was a giant car. It's a Chevy Tahoe what have, what have you, and it was all

blacked out. And uh,

[00:31:16] Joe: that

[00:31:16] DAN: they walked directly from the church to the car left.

[00:31:20] Bailey: man

[00:31:26] Joe: It's yeah, that was like thing that I genuinely asked, I feel like

was, is drivers gone? Yeah, but then it's happening while we're talking to him?

 

[00:31:37] Bailey: said that drivers is gone, he told us that all the stickers, the

reserved seat stickers are being removed, so there's no reserved seating

anymore. Phil Dooley doesn't have security guards. He like stays on the floor.

As people are coming to church and, um, greets people up until the time

[00:32:00] that he has to preach, uh, he said that like the makeup room and the

makeup team and all of that, you know, weren't a thing. I don't know. Now I'm

kind of suss.

[00:32:13] DAN: Yeah, I mean, what I've noticed on. The narrative of Hillsong

is that everything has changed. Everything's changed. We've got rid of

everything. We're doing all this, we're clearing house. But I just don't know how

you can wholesale change that. I mean, I, I sincerely hope they are changing.

Um, but I dunno if that change is because of contrition.

[00:32:31] Bailey: right

[00:32:32] DAN: Um, or if that change is from contraction in that they just

don't have the people in the popularity to do it anymore.

[00:32:39] Bailey: I do feel like one thing that really hammered home was like,

this is not the cool place to be anymore. You know, there's no celebrities, there's

no status. It's just, it's not, I'm not here because it's the cool thing to do anymore.

I'm here because [00:33:00] I wanna see this through and I wanna make the

church better. And I respected that, but at the same time, my biggest question

and concern, how are the college students being treated? And um, he was very

apologetic and he seemed incredibly genuine, and I don't know if I'm the fool

for believing him or it's just so hard to, I don't know.

[00:33:27] Joe: I don't know what to believe anymore. The fact that the pastor's

still getting his door opened, it's like celebrity culture is gone, but still being

literally treated like a celebrity. It's like, you know, nobody walks out and gets

your door. Gets my door. Like it, Not that it's an entitled thing, but just saying

like that's not a normal people thing. Like that is something that happens for

somebody who is higher up. So it's just frustrating hearing for an hour we're

changed, everything's gone, and then boom, Dan witnesses it still happen. And

we even called it out before we even went in. Oh, that's probably a driver's

vehicle, .[00:34:00]

[00:34:00] DAN: Yeah, it is. It's kinda interesting. And to be fair, I need to, I

need to double check that that was a pastor. I mean, It was certainly a more

senior person. I mean, everybody was, he was older than everybody.

 

[00:34:16] DAN VO: I did double check this, and the man I saw was Lee

Burns, executive vice president of Hillsong College. To be fair, what I witnessed

might not have been an active Hillsong's guest driver's program. And I don't

wanna suggest it's problematic for a young adult to show an elder a polite

courtesy by opening their car door. But as we've seen time and time again with

Hillsong, the line between honoring your leaders and being exploited by them is

thin. And if what I witnessed was a continuation of the driver's program just

without the name, it makes me wonder. Is it all just Hillsong rebranding? Is

Hillsong capable of true change like Pastor Christ and others are calling for?

Like [00:35:00] Noemi has found for herself, real institutional change comes

from the top down. So I decided to look into the decision makers at Hillsong,

the designers of Hillsong's renovation, the global board.

[00:35:16] DAN: In your text, you said that you had a meeting with...

[00:35:19] Delali: Oh

[00:35:19] DAN: someone, an unnamed, uh, board member, and they, yeah

agreed to speak to you.

[00:35:29] Delali: Yeah, they're actively trying to steer the ship somewhere and,

um, in my opinion, it's a sinking ship.