In a major disclosure on April 22nd, former Hillsong member, Geoff Bullock, breaks his 27-year silence and blew the whistle on Hillsong’s past, revealing yet another case of sexual abuse by Brian Houston’s father, pastor Frank Houston.
In a major disclosure on April 22nd, former Hillsong member, Geoff Bullock, breaks his 27-year silence and blew the whistle on Hillsong’s past, revealing yet another case of sexual abuse by Brian Houston’s father, pastor Frank Houston. Perhaps more shocking than the account itself, is that Bullock alleges Hillsong leadership, including Brian Houston, were aware of the abuse and discussed it internally in the early ‘90s. Dan then tracks down the most recent Hillsong whistleblower, Jacob Harrison, who opens up about his experience at one80tc, an alcohol and drug rehab facility based in Sydney.
Watch Hillsong: A Megachurch Exposed on discovery+. Go to discoveryplus.com/hillsong to start your 7-day free trial today. Terms apply.
[00:00:00] DAN VO: This episode may contain explicit language and themes
such as sexual assault and violence. Listener discretion is advised.
[00:00:10] Geoff Bullock: Every cent of the Hillsong Empire, every cent of
their salaries, their cars, their clothes, their mansions, their airfares, their
accommodation, their holidays. Every cent has been given to them by the sheep.
[00:00:27] DAN VO: I'm Dan John Stone, and this is Hillsong Megachurch
Shattered from Discovery Plus. In the months after Brian's resignation, the
documentary's premier and the leaked Lentz report, I began hearing from more
people through email, Twitter, and Instagram, who were reaching out to share
their own troubling experiences with Hillsong. Whistleblowers were coming
forward with powerful stories to tell. The walls of silence lining Hillsong were
filling with voices of its [00:01:00] victims. My conversations with some of
those now speaking up takes me to where Hillsong's controversy began over 30
years ago and where it now continues to deepen Australia. Jeff Bullock was a
founding figure of Hills Christian Life Center in the early 1980s and stood at
Brian Houston's side as he built his vision for Hillsong. Jeff wrote their first
global mega hit 'Power of Your Love' as Hillsong's first ever worship pastor, a
position he now refers to as Chief Propaganda Officer, but Jeff abruptly left the
church in 1995 and never shared the real reason why. Now after 27 year silence,
Jeff is coming forward to share his story and the truth about the beginning days
of Hillsong.[00:02:00]
[00:02:04] DAN: Hey Jeff, I'm Dan. Hi, Dan. How you going? I've really
wanted to speak to somebody you know, like yourself that has this kind of
history and I, and I'd known your name. Sort of just to, to start off at the
beginning, when, when you found that message and that belief and you wrote
that music, it must have felt exciting at that time.
[00:02:22] Geoff Bullock: Oh, it was, It, it, it was extraordinary because we
were young, we're all in our late twenties, uh, and we, we, we started to play, uh,
a more upbeat type of music and we were very much into the gifts of Holy
Spirit and uh, and the sense of, you know, the anointing and all those
pentecostal words and then all of a sudden the church started to grow. And so by
late 84, um, I suggested to Brian that we call the Music Group Hills Song.
Cause the Hills Christian Life Center Music Group sort of sounded clunky. Uh,
and he goes, Oh, okay. I don't know why. Then we moved into a warehouse in
85 and then, uh, 87 I went full time and then we pulled the [00:03:00] wall
down, double the size of it. Uh, and then we started the, the Hillsong
conference. Which I ran, convened at least, for nine years. Fast forward to 95,
uh, when they recorded Shout to the Lord. Shout to the Lord went double gold
in America. All the albums, all the live albums that we recorded have gone gold
in platinum all over the world. And that was 12 years after we started a little
satellite church. In 12 , and then look, over the last 27 years since I've gone, it's,
it's taken the world, right? The opportunity that we missed is we, we didn't
really have an encounter with Jesus. We had an encounter with the Holy Spirit,
and we had an encounter with popularity, and we had an encounter with
something. That's gonna sound awful, but we could sell. The church became the
object. The church became far more important than what we was, who we were
meant to be emulating. I suddenly had my. The problem was that my spirituality
was changing, [00:04:00] and I was finding that the methodology of leadership
and the character of leadership that. I had to enforce was suddenly becoming
erythema to me that I, I suddenly, I couldn't be that person anymore. I was going
in a different direction.
[00:04:20] DAN: Jeff left the church in 1995 after giving 12 years to Brian. The
reasons he gave are all personal. He didn't attack the church. He didn't publicly
question Brian's leadership. And yet, even in those days, leaving Hillsong was
just not something you did peacefully.
[00:04:38] Geoff Bullock: When I left Hillsong in, well, it was Hills Christian
Life Center in those days, but in, in late 1995. From that moment on it, it was
sort of like they tried to move as far away from me as they possibly could or
move me as far away from them as they possibly could and actively, uh, worked
[00:05:00] against my ministry at the time, and I, I lost contact with, uh, all my
colleagues and. Three or four times, uh, tried to reconcile with Brian. It
appeared that if I said anything, uh, I would get quite a aggressive response, and
so I, I remained relatively silent about the real reasons of leaving and the
process of leaving. And then what happened over the, the following 25, 26
years.
[00:05:30] DAN: One thing that struck me about something that you said, I
mean, you said you tried to reach out to Brian, not for the church side of it, just
to sort of some sort of reconciliation.
[00:05:39] Geoff Bullock: Well, for his sake, I, I was trying. He, we were very,
very close friends. We, we went on holidays together. There was one stage we
were thinking of buying. A couple of acreage that, uh, my parents were trying to
sell and we were gonna build two houses together, which, uh, would've been
interesting.
[00:05:57] DAN: I'm guessing that he couldn't accept what you were trying to
[00:06:00] reconcile with him.
[00:06:01] Geoff Bullock: Um, I remember having, we took Brian and Bobby
to lunch. Uh, on, You're not gonna believe this. August the 13th, 1997 . And I
tried to explain to him, I said, Look, Brian, I'm, I'm so sorry. Not, I'm not sorry
for what I did because I had to, but I'm sorry for what you and Bobby went
through. And he just said to me, I will believe that when you're back in my
church. So to Brian it was, he took it personally that, uh, he'd lost an armor
bearer and that I was absolutely wrong and diluted and he really couldn't
compliments my, my reasons. Uh, well one, cause I probably wasn't being
particularly honest about them at the time. I just said I really felt that God was
demanding that I go, which in essence is what I felt at the time. It took me a
long time to come to realize why I. And also come to realize the dysfunction in
the church, uh, and [00:07:00] the abuse, uh, of our workers, uh, that I was part
of.
[00:07:06] DAN: You seem to, you epitomize what a lot of people tell me that
they fear and that is, This is a community and a family and a group that I belong
to and speaking up against it, I'd lose that community. Um, you're sort of, you're
excommunicated from it and it, and it's not that you necessarily miss the church
or the teaching, it's that you miss the people. Um, and I feel like you very
specifically were removed from those people.
[00:07:31] Geoff Bullock: I lost all my friends. I lost all my buddies. When I
left Hillsong in 1995, uh, I continued in ministry and so I was about to fly up to
Perth only a few days later. And Nabi Saleh and Lee Howard Smith, who it's
two elders of Hillsong, said, Look, can we meet you in the, in a, in the business
lounge, uh, or in a business room at Sydney Airport? We want to talk to you.
[00:07:58] DAN VO: Nabi Saleh, the man [00:08:00] Jeff references. Is still a
Hillsong Global Board member to this day. Nabby went on to have a
controversial career of his own that we will discuss later in the series.
[00:08:09] Geoff Bullock: And so he met there and they said, Look, please
don't leave. Please don't leave. I felt profoundly that I had to leave, and at the
time I really felt that, uh, it was God calling me to leave. And so it, that
wouldn't change from my mind. And so obviously I went my own way. Uh, the
next time I saw Naali. He looked at me and he said to me, Jeff, you do know we
tried to destroy you. And that's verbatim. Wow. And I looked at him and I said,
Nabi, why? Verbatim. Now, the, the next thing I don't remember, but it was
along the lines of, Well, Jeff, we thought you were going to bring us down. So
these problems in this methodology that they've [00:09:00] used was actually
acknowledged by them, uh, way back in the mid nineties.
[00:09:05] DAN VO: Nabi Sally has not responded to other news outlets
request for comment about these allegations.
[00:09:12] DAN: I didn't say this originally, but I, I do appreciate you sharing
this story with me and with us. Um, and I appreciate you sharing it with others.
Um, I think the point of it getting out there is, is important. Why now? Why is,
why is this, why is your part of the story? What is it about now?
[00:09:30] Geoff Bullock: When Brian resigned from the church, I felt that I
had permission to see that there were now two separate entities. There was
Brian. Uh, and then there was my story at Hillsong. And to be honest, the other
reason was that, uh, I found, finally found the courage to do it, but I just felt
that, uh, my story could be heard and told, uh, without people thinking there
was a, a horrid [00:10:00] underlying bias to it.
[00:10:01] DAN: Yeah, I mean, I think, uh, it seems to be that's the first point of
attack is, you know, someone's agenda. I mean, I, I've certainly, I don't. An iota
of the connection that you do to it but I have been, that charge has been levied
against me. Yeah. And this, the, the unwavering nature now is just attack any
messenger that says anything about the shepherd.
[00:10:24] Geoff Bullock: What's happened now is it's reversed where the
sheep of, uh, are protecting the, the shepherd. And it's just important to say that
for me, this is not about just about Brian and Hill Song. To me, this is about a
culture of Christianity.
[00:10:41] DAN: I'm very interested in the political nature of how Brian has
dealt with a lot of things. He treats, um, direct questions like a politician. Mm.
And he always says that he doesn't know about anything until the last minute.
He didn't know about Carl until I just found out I didn't know about my father
until I, until these guys brought it up to me. [00:11:00]
[00:11:00] Geoff Bullock: Mm.
[00:11:00] DAN: But I think your, from your personal understanding, is there,
there's some incidents. In the past that Brian did know about and has sort of
tried to either remove himself from or just kind of deny.
[00:11:14] Geoff Bullock: It's a hard thing to tell, but it probably needs to be
stated again that, um, Brian would often call me in his office and we would
discuss things, you know, things that were perhaps a threat to the church or
something. He was, uh, he'd run things by me. Because I was a mate, right?
And, uh, one morning Brian called me into the office and just said, This young
man, uh, that I knew who was a very, very close friend of mine, uh, has made
allegations that Frank, that my father was in, was interfering with him and, uh,
this young man. Made an accusation to his senior pastor. And that senior pastor
was the senior pastor of the church that Frank [00:12:00] used to Pastor
Christian Life Center, Sydney. And he made an accusation to this, uh, pastor
that, uh, Frank was basically using gay conversion therapy. Uh, in a way that
was really, uh, sexual abuse. Uh, now this young man was in his twenties, so
this was not a criminal act, but it was a warning, uh, about, uh, Brian's father,
Frank, and, uh, remember the discussion of, Well, what have you done? And he
said, Well, we've told his wife and she's left. And he's, he's run off to
Queensland, and so that's how they dealt with it,
[00:12:44] DAN: Right.
[00:12:44] Geoff Bullock: They basically removed the whistleblower.
[00:12:47] DAN: Right.
[00:12:48] DAN VO: Brian Houston denies ever learning of this accusation
made against his father
[00:12:56] Geoff Bullock: But the problem is that [00:13:00] the, the concept of
the kingdom, the church, building a kingdom, the concept is that anything that
comes against that kingdom has to be dealt with very, very quickly. It has to be.
The best way to deal with it is, is, is to, to, uh, banish the, the messenger or the
whistleblower. Cause we were protecting the kingdom that we had to protect the
kingdom and the church at all costs. Now, in, in those days, it made perfect
sense to me, uh, and I, to my discredit, um, I felt relief. Oh, okay. Few. Okay.
Okay. It's fine.
[00:13:40] DAN: And the whistleblower, to use their phrase, you know, taking
off to Queensland, allowed it to not be addressed.
[00:13:48] Geoff Bullock: That's right. Uh, yes. He, he, he was the creative arts
minister, uh, of Christian Life Center, Sydney. He had a family with [00:14:00]
children and suddenly he's been outed. Right. And he had to build his life. Just
start again. It's heartbreaking. Uh, but unfortunately that story. That story has
mirrored time and time and time again. And, and sadly, when the story came out
in 1999, it, it didn't become addressed, uh, by the AOG 'till 2004, and that's the
problem we now have before the court.
[00:14:40] DAN VO: The problem we now have before the court as Jeff
describes it, is the charge against Brian Houston for failing to report his father
Frank's child sexual abuse to authorities when he first claims to have learned
about it in 1999. In Brian's own statement to the Australian Royal Commission,
he says, quote, This was the first allegation of child [00:15:00] sexual abuse or
any other allegation of this type against Frank that I had ever been aware of. He
expresses shock in learning of his father's sexual deviance, but according to Jeff,
Brian was told about this allegation over four years before the allegation being
litigated in Australia.
[00:15:18] DAN: There is something in watching the, um, the commission, the
Royal Commission. Mm-hmm. , there's something that I just, I sort of want to
touch on, um, and that you, you, you know, you talked about, um, the sexual
deviance of Frank and the red flags about it. One of the things that Brian says
when he. When he is confronted with the, the first time he heard about the, his
father and Brett's Sengstock.
[00:15:46] Brian Houston Tape: Now, the reason I remember is because it hit
me, you know, in a ten second period in a wave, because I was like,
Homosexual, you know, get my head around that before my consciousness went
to hold it a minute. We're not just [00:16:00] talking about, you know,
homosexual, we're talking about pedophilia.
[00:16:03] DAN: The first thing he says is, Wow. I, I was shocked and the first
thing I thought was, Whoa, homosexual. And then I walked into the crime and I,
I really do, I want to make a really hard point of separation that homosexuality
is not the deviance, the deviance is, the abuse and pedophilia.
[00:16:18] Geoff Bullock: Oh, absolutely.
[00:16:19] DAN: Homosexuality is not a sin. It is not a deviance. It is not a
crime. It is a natural part of our human condition. And the fact that they, that
was his first thought, and he says it on the stand, I'm not, I'm not, um, I'm not
putting words in his mouth at this point. Because I, I feel, and I feel like within
Hillsong, even the fact that that was his first thought, um, about an alleged
abuse against a child. I, I just, I really feel a strong urge to remove that, even
that word or connotation to do with what is, uh, the, the most evil crime. Well,
[00:16:58] Geoff Bullock: Dan, [00:17:00] it's what if it wasn't Brett
Sengstock? What if it was Brianna and Frank's sexual deviancy was towards.
Uh, underage girl. Would that sort of be less horrifying
[00:17:19] DAN: right.
[00:17:19] Geoff Bullock: To that moral structure of the church?
[00:17:22] DAN: Yeah, it's a, it's a chilling, chilling thought. And I, I haven't
thought about it like that. I, I just, um, yeah, the, it just, there's no, there's no
space in that.
[00:17:32] Geoff Bullock: Yeah.
[00:17:32] DAN: In, in, in that, I'm stumbling over my words cause I'm finding
very difficult to talk about.
[00:17:36] Geoff Bullock: Mm, no, no. That is a, that is a reflection of that
patriarchal male Christianity, that is a poison arrow into the hearts of young men
and women who are suffering where their sexual identity. For, uh, that has been
pushed by a church that says that [00:18:00] we are all created the image of
God, Which sort that one out for me theologically,
[00:18:06] DAN: Right.
[00:18:06] Geoff Bullock: We're all created the image of God. Except that part
of your image isn't Godly.
[00:18:10] DAN: Yeah. Uh uh. I'm still sort of stuck on your, on that question
cuz it's so perfectly a personifies it. If it was a girl, would it make it any
different and as if there's a gradation of sin that his father committed and one of
those things, uh, yeah. It's, it's really chilling to think about.
[00:18:29] Geoff Bullock: It is. It is chilling, uh, and it's even more chilling
when that comes from one of the most senior religious leaders in the world.
[00:18:40] DAN VO: Brian categorically denies learning of any allegations of
sexual abuse by his father until 1999. But Jeff says Brian knew of homosexual
allegations against his father in the mid nineties. Allegations that required his
personal intervention. And as we've seen time, time again, only this time in a
Royal Court, Brian seems to be [00:19:00] toying with the truth.
[00:19:03] Geoff Bullock: Now, I, I, I really need to be, uh, careful here. That
I'm not making accusations, so I'm not on a, I do not have an agenda. Uh, I'm
heartbroken. I'm heartbroken for Brian and Bobby. I'm heartbroken for his
family. I'm heartbroken for the victims. But if we don't, if we feel that to defend
the church is to cover the truth, then the truth will never set us free if we know
the truth. And we speak the truth, then we set ourselves free. And that takes, that
takes grace. And I'm not saying I'm courageous, but it takes courage to look at
the truth about yourself and go, Hmm, I was wrong. I was, I shouldn't have done
that hand my hand up yet.
[00:19:56] DAN: Right.
[00:19:56] Geoff Bullock: I, I, I was wrong. I can't blame anybody else. That
was my [00:20:00] decision and I made other people the victim, but, uh, this
unfortunately is wise, has all happened.
[00:20:07] DAN: Yeah. I mean it's, uh, it's the cover up, the catches you. And
you know, now he's out of the church and he seems to be incredibly angry, um,
incredibly self righteous and has a point to prove.
[00:20:21] Geoff Bullock: Mm-hmm.
[00:20:22] Geoff Bullock: He's supposed to be taking a step back from
ministry. Yes. Um, and instead he is on a, on a, a nation tour every Sunday at a
new church.
[00:20:31] Geoff Bullock: Yes, he's on, he's on the, uh, the victim justification
tour.
[00:20:36] DAN: Right.
[00:20:36] Geoff Bullock: Poor, but I, poor, poor man. Poor man. If he could
only reflect on who he's become and, and, and have the courage to see that his
failure was assured, because of that people, justified his personality made
excuses for it and he wasn't accountable for it. Uh, and it's just sad to see
[00:21:00] where he is now. You know, it sort of breaks my heart. Cause you
know, I've known Brian since he was in his mid twenties,
[00:21:06] DAN: right. Yeah, you, you should have a lot of shared time
together.
[00:21:09] Geoff Bullock: Definitely
[00:21:09] DAN: at very transformative moments in your life.
[00:21:12] Geoff Bullock: I can still remember Brian's eyes. Clearly. I can close
my eyes and see Brian's eyes, and I can still remember my deep love for the
man to the point where I, I was prepared to do things that were against my
conscience because I thought it was the right thing to do.
[00:21:29] DAN: Right? Yeah. Yeah. There's a clip of Brian that gets shared a
lot, which is, you know, do you think Hillsong's got too big? And he says, I
don't think a church can be too big. And I, I feel like it's a, a flippant statement
because, When something gets that big, people do get forgotten messages get
forgotten. The axiomatic reasoning of like what? We're getting bigger so we
can't be wrong because Jesus wouldn't let us get bigger so we get bigger again.
You know, it's like this self-serving reasoning.
[00:21:57] Geoff Bullock: I'll leave you with one thought that's [00:22:00]
every cent of the. Hillsong Empire. Every cent of their salaries, their cars, their
clothes, their mansions, their airfares, their accommodation, their holidays,
every cent has been given to them by the sheep. Brian Houston's house is on the
market here in, uh, in Sydney. Uh, multimillion dollar house. I dunno what it's
going for. It'd have to be north of $3 million. Pictures of a walk in wardrobe full
of designer clothes, a pool, a garden, a mansion. Every cent of that house, is
charity to Brian and Bobby. If their theology was right, Hillsong would be a
congregation of millionaires, but it's not. It's just pastored by millionaires.
[00:22:52] DAN: Yeah.
[00:22:53] Geoff Bullock: And the millionaires, because people feel compelled
to give to God [00:23:00] in purity of heart. And that's the hard one. And, and,
and to wake up from that, uh, Is a, is a, is a horrible thought for people who are
sacrificed financially for decades. I need to realize that it's gone to the first class
seats and the resorts and the designer clothes and the mansions. Uh, did it go to
God or how can it go to God? The only way we can give to God is put our arm
around somebody and give them grace and peace.
[00:23:41] DAN VO: Some defenders of Hillsong justify their recent scandals,
the exposed abuse and their strategies of coverup as growing pains that these
things will happen as an institution is learning how to manage and protect
something that has become so expansive, powerful, and wealthy so fast. But
Jeff's account from the beginning days of 30 years [00:24:00] ago, seem to
mirror the modern day Hillsong abuse, coercion, cover up all in the name of
building the kingdom. And that , according to yet another new whistleblower
out of Australia, Jacob Harrison, is more expansive, more shadowy than I ever
knew. Jacob was a patient at a rehab outside Sydney called One80 TC. While
the rehab isn't officially linked to Hillsong, their ties run deep. Hillsong elder.
Andrew Denton is a One80 TC Board member, is general manager, is the
brother of current Hillsong board member Darren Ke. In 2019One80 TCTC was
given a three year, 1.8 million contract with the Australian government, the
former Prime Minister and alleged buddy of Brian Houston. Scott Morrison,
Inked. Just weeks before the 2019 election, he was expected to lose.
[00:24:51] DAN: Start from the beginning.
[00:24:51] jacob_harrison: Okay.
[00:24:52] DAN: How did you, uh, Well, how did you, How did you come to
be?
[00:24:56] jacob_harrison: How was I? Where did I come from? [00:25:00]
Basically, I've had my own mental health misadventures over the years. I had a
lot of PTSD, started drinking a , I've got bipolar type two. I was starting to
check into psych wards fairly regularly with suicidal ideation to the point where
I couldn't hold down a job, where I was getting on the brink of homelessness
and I had no idea what my next step was because I was kind of out of options. I
needed something if I wanted to live, and I was pretty much ready to reach out
for whatever help there was. Whatever hand was offered, I was willing to. So I
was in a, a psych ward in Sydney early 2018. Right. So, uh, there was another
patient there and he's said 10 years ago, uh, he was in a place called One80 TC
and he got a lot of help in there, and it well, quite a number of years before,
obviously he also [00:26:00] landed in a psych ward. But, you know, I didn't , I
didn't, you know, real, I wasn't in a good enough state to really um, put that
logical step,
[00:26:09] DAN: put that together.
[00:26:09] jacob_harrison: Yeah, exactly. You know, you don't always get the
best advice. From other patients in the psych ward, as, as it turns out,
[00:26:15] DAN: you're looking for any kind of lifeline.
[00:26:16] jacob_harrison: Yeah,
[00:26:16] DAN: you're ready to reach out, try anything. But until this point
you dunno anything.
[00:26:21] jacob_harrison: Never heard of the place.
[00:26:22] DAN: You have no idea about any, any real, No. No idea about any
religious connotation or anything like that?
[00:26:26] jacob_harrison: I knew that at that stage they were a, um, uh,
Christian based. But in Australia, well there are basically no rehabs. We kind of
outsource to whoever will take any long term patients. That's, that's kind of the
way it works over here.
[00:26:43] DAN: So it is not unusual that it would be, it would be associated
with a Christian group of some kind?
[00:26:47] jacob_harrison: No, not of some kind. And I was thinking, you
know, it could be Salvation Army, right? They've kind of been around quite a
few years and known to do quite good work operating, um, in safe injection
rooms and things like that. And at that point I had, [00:27:00] I had no other
leads. So I'm like, you know what, I, I think I'll take this. So that was it. I
checked out of the psych ward into my mom's care. She was going to drive me
to this, uh, rehab on the outskirts of Western Sydney.
[00:27:16] DAN: Mm-hmm.
[00:27:17] jacob_harrison: and, we joked on the way there, like, you know
about the, the Christian side of it and she said, So how are we gonna handle
having to go to church every day, I mean, every Sunday or whatever it is. And
I'm like, Oh, you know, it'll be fine. I mean, like, it's not gonna be Hillsong, is
it?
[00:27:35] DAN: Oh my gosh.
[00:27:35] jacob_harrison: Yeah. And we both laughed. We both had a good
laugh.
[00:27:39] DAN: So you, Yeah. Do you were aware of the entity of Hillsong?
[00:27:41] jacob_harrison: Oh yeah. We made big jokes about it. Oh yeah.
And to be honest, it's a weird thing to have come from Australia. Like it's, I
remember my first experience of walking into a Hillsong church. It was similar
to my first experience of walking into a Outback Steakhouse in America. It was
[00:28:00] just like, this shouldn't be here. Where am I? This seems out of
place.
[00:28:08] DAN: Um, you're officially the only person that's ever described a
Hillsong service as an Outback Steakhouse yes. Um, or, or a similar experience
too. So I'm just gonna leave that one there.
[00:28:18] jacob_harrison: Yeah. Yep. Um, but yeah. Uh, I'll, I'll get back to
where I was in my story.
[00:28:25] DAN: Yeah, yeah. You're with, you're with your mom. You're joking
that at least it's not gonna be a Hillsong.
[00:28:28] jacob_harrison: Yeah.
[00:28:28] DAN: Pull, pull me into the parking lot, like,
[00:28:29] jacob_harrison: Oh, okay.
[00:28:30] DAN: You're with your mom and have a laugh.
[00:28:31] jacob_harrison: Yeah. Okay. Okay. So we've got it punched into
Google Maps. We're going out, you know, it's getting more and more kind of out
to back of rural western Sydney and out into the bush basically. And it's now it's
turned into a dirt. And we're going over this dirt road, over this bridge up a hill,
and I'm thinking, Oh my God, is this Jonestown? We made it up the hill and it's
just, it's just [00:29:00] some shacks. It's just some, it looks like a, um, summer
camp, but really quite run down at the time.
[00:29:08] DAN: just really remote.
[00:29:09] jacob_harrison: It's out there
[00:29:10] DAN: right
[00:29:11] jacob_harrison: in the bush. We, we drove up to the, the main
shack. That's where I did my kind of, you know, orientation. They searched my
bags and whatever. And my mom at that stage, she's still with me. She's like,
Oh, I was just wondering, so what church do you do you guys go to? And so,
Oh, so we go to Hillsong, um, two or three times a week. And mom looked at
me and she's, and I looked at her and we're both trying not to laugh. And she's
like, Oh, that's nice. So, yeah, we did the initial orientation and we were
checking in, They were going through my bags, making sure I didn't have
anything I wasn't supposed to. Which includes, as it turns out, any kind of
literature that isn't either a Bible or Pentecostal literature. Like, you know, if you
had a, if you had a copy of Lord that rings in there, [00:30:00] they, that
shouldn't be something that they would confiscate. The only things that weren't
Bibles like that they had in their library were things that were passed down from
Hillsong College that they didn't use anymore. Like stuff that you wouldn't
really necessarily want vulnerable people reading as, especially when it's the
only thing that's on offer.
[00:30:19] DAN: What was the actual treatment like?
[00:30:21] jacob_harrison: Um, the first six weeks is structured like a normal.
However, it's a 12 month program, so it's a long term kind of, you're in there for
a big commitment,
[00:30:31] DAN: right.
[00:30:31] jacob_harrison: Um, the way that you're paying for this generally is
you have to be on a government welfare payment, either unemployment or a
student allowance or a, uh, disability pension, right? That said, there were
people in there that were conned into selling their homes. Um, same kind of
tactics that that you'd be familiar with talking to people from Hillsong.
[00:30:59] DAN VO: To [00:31:00] clarify, when Jacob says conned into
selling their homes, he's referencing a story that he heard from a friend in the
rehab that another patient sold his house and gave the proceeds to 180 TC. We
haven't been able to substantiate this claim, but regardless it seems that 180 TC's
patients, similar to many Hillsong college students we've spoken with, are
giving what little they have for the treatment.
[00:31:22] DAN: And you did. How are you feeling? Was it, do you feel like it
was moving anything? Did you just, you know, or you enjoy just being sort of
clean and sober?
[00:31:29] jacob_harrison: Well, that's it. You, your body responds well to
being clean and sober and, you know, I'm outdoors in the bush. Um, clean air
and all that kind of stuff. There's physical kind of activity to do. Um, I like
exercise when I'm feeling healthy, so I was doing that. So, you know, I'm feeling
better within myself anyway. They did have a, a real psychologist that would
come as well, like once every week or two. So like that was something.
[00:32:00] So I was bouncing back fairly strongly and I was able to show a
genuine interest in the Bible and in the Hillsong stuff cuz like I did have my
anthropologist hat on and I had nothing but time the majority of the day and
nothing else to read or do. Plus you show interest in anything Hill Song or
Biblically related, you get perk.
[00:32:27] DAN: So you're being, you're being, you're being rewarded.
[00:32:29] jacob_harrison: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The more interest you
showed in, in the biblical stuff and bible grips and things like that, the more
opportunities you got. Such as when the, um, Hillsong conference came to
Sydney, uh, we were asked if we would like to go and well asked, um, told, um,
if we would like to go volunteer on the motorcade to, um, go wash cars all day
and we're like, yeah. [00:33:00] Um, so yeah, so that's kind of what we were
doing from like, I dunno, 7:00 AM till, um, four or 5:00 PM when of the, Yeah.
Close to when the, the mid, the, the evening session began and we got to sit in
on that. And look at the same time I say that, but I kind of was thankful for it
because at, I think by that stage, I'd been there four or five months, maybe even
until my six month. And, um, it, you want to not be there as much as possible.
Even if you are like washing cars, at least you are in a different environment,
washing cars. With different people.
[00:33:40] DAN: So work release.
[00:33:41] jacob_harrison: Yeah, exactly. Work release. So at least it's, it's
somewhere else. So it's a quantum of freedom. Um, so yeah, we were just,
[00:33:51] DAN: I'm sure they probably know that too.
[00:33:52] jacob_harrison: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So there's that added, you know,
you didn't, they didn't have to ask twice anyway.
[00:33:58] DAN: Right.
[00:33:58] jacob_harrison: So [00:34:00] yeah, we went and then about, I
think it was midday, one o'clock or something like that. And this nice white
Audi, similar white Audi kind of pulls up and there's, you have to take special,
special care of this one boys, this one's Brian's car. I'm like, okay.
[00:34:19] DJ: We touched on this in the documentary, how Hillsong exploits
the energy and ambition of young volunteers and college students to clean
stadiums after conferences and scrub toilet. Being the recipient of free labor for
mentally unwell rehab patients just feels, even by Hillsong standards, so wrong.
[00:34:37] DAN: What do you think the goal is?
[00:34:39] jacob_harrison: Well, It was referred to as a Christian based rehab.
It's, it's not, It's a hillson indoctrination camp with a, with a mild interest in
rehabilitation. Like the rehabilitation stops after six weeks.
[00:34:57] DAN: Uh, when that six weeks is done, what is the rest
[00:34:59] jacob_harrison: [00:35:00] it's, that's all indoctrination. That's,
that's it. And babysitting. It's
[00:35:08] DAN: And how, how long were you in it?
[00:35:10] jacob_harrison: I was there six months.
[00:35:11] DAN: What was there that forced you out?
[00:35:14] jacob_harrison: I'd kind of bottled up what I was feeling for a little
while. You know, there's some vulnerable people in there with, all kinds of
things. Schizophrenia, borrderline personality, or maybe drug-induced psychosis
only just recently had just got over this kind of stuff. And you know, maybe a
student who's just come in that day and they, and this community member has
come over to them thinking that they're a professional and starts telling them. A
psychosis dream or something like that, and this student starts talking to them
saying, Well, maybe it was a sign from God, rather than it was just part of
psychosis. Don't worry about it. You know, you'll, you'll start getting better.
[00:35:54] DAN: Right.
[00:35:55] jacob_harrison: It was one of something like that where I was like,
That's [00:36:00] it for me here. It was unspeakable.
[00:36:05] DAN: Uh, when you left, what was, did you have to announce it to
them? How, what was...
[00:36:09] jacob_harrison: no, it was quite sudden. My heart was, I, I was, I
was well and truly over Hill song at this stage and I couldn't get behind it. I was
having arguments with people that would come in and so I had you get kind of
like monthly leave and, um, I was on the train to Central Sydney, which takes a
good hour and a half or more. And while I was on that train trip, I was like, You
know what? I'm not going back. And I, um, right. I had a, well, I had a bit of a
bender, I won't lie. Um, but I needed to kind of, um, exercise some demons, so
to speak, I guess. Um, so I had a bit of a bender for about, about a week or so,
and I ended up in, um, a different, um, psychiatric institution for about three
weeks after that. But it was a, a professional like private [00:37:00] institution in
Sydney. It was a decompression period to get over the past six months. Cause I
had deconditioned to what was normal reality. I'm in a really good place at the
moment. I'm working, I'm studying occupational therapy at the moment. Um,
hoping to work in mental health myself.
[00:37:22] DAN: That's great.
[00:37:22] jacob_harrison: Yeah. I may have the opportunity to warn someone
away from going to One80 TC
[00:37:31] DAN: Is there Hillsong branding within the facility?
[00:37:35] jacob_harrison: No, it's not like One80 TC presented by Hillsong or
anything like that. But I mean, that's where all of them,
[00:37:41] DAN: But, But you were going to, you knew there was no hiding.
[00:37:45] jacob_harrison: Oh, yeah. There was no, that's, that's where it all
went. Yeah, that's where they were taking us. You just have a look at their, their
Instagram feed or anything, or Facebook. It's just all there.
[00:37:56] DAN VO: After this call with Jacob, I pulled up one One80 TC,
Instagram. If [00:38:00] Hillsong was ever present on their page, it doesn't seem
to be now. No location tags, no hashtags, no Hillsong logos, as if keeping the
association with Hillsong's Secret for some reason, it's a troubling example of
how far Hillsong's tentacles reach and how invisible they can be. But a
movement of transparency and accountability is now happening around
Hillsong with former lead pastors of Major Hillsong branches stepping down
amidst demands for change. To find out if real transparency, real change is
actually happening at Hillsong, I decided to look at one of their most vulnerable,
yet most existentially vital arms. Hillsong College.
[00:38:40] DAN: So I am walking up to the college temporary campus. With
Big Hillsong Insignia, um, looks like, looks like an Apple store, um, but for
Jesus. Now, here's an older [00:39:00] person. Looks like a pastor. Definitely a
pastor. They're walking towards me.